Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

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Wally
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Wally » Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:37 am

Basically this comes in its place firstly:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138482 (1200 T1T)

After the 1200cc type 1 I hope to have finished the 36hp Land Speed Record engine and try that out, maybe try run a speed for the Vintage 36hp class records that Burly keeps. It will be 1,5ltr and all EFI and turbo'd too of course 8)

After all that, I still have a very strong motivation to get some 3-valve twin spark OHC type 4 heads done with the old A-team.
Probably on a small-ish engine 2.0 - 2,3 ltr. You remeber the design still surely?
Image
but thats still long time away...steps have been made though :wink:

Well, since you asked :lol:
Merry X-mas guys!
T4T: Type 4 Turbo engine, under construction

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jonas_linder
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by jonas_linder » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:19 am

Wally wrote:Basically this comes in its place firstly:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138482 (1200 T1T)

After the 1200cc type 1 I hope to have finished the 36hp Land Speed Record engine and try that out, maybe try run a speed for the Vintage 36hp class records that Burly keeps. It will be 1,5ltr and all EFI and turbo'd too of course 8)

After all that, I still have a very strong motivation to get some 3-valve twin spark OHC type 4 heads done with the old A-team.
Probably on a small-ish engine 2.0 - 2,3 ltr. You remeber the design still surely?
IMG
but thats still long time away...steps have been made though :wink:

Well, since you asked :lol:
Merry X-mas guys!
Oh yes, I read about your 1200, fun project, how are you going to bypass the exhaust to the second turbo?

Who can ever forget that design, what is happening with it? last time I checked, nothing had happened for quite some time!

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Wally
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Wally » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:31 pm

jonas_linder wrote: Oh yes, I read about your 1200, fun project, how are you going to bypass the exhaust to the second turbo?
Bypass is not a 'bypass' as such but a direct 100% full-time connection containing the downpipe from the small turbo plus the wastegate outlet :wink:
However, the 1200 engine will be a lot better breathing this time, so I think the compound system isn;t even neccesary to get to 200hp, but I'll try to build it anyways just to gain experience with it.

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jonas_linder
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by jonas_linder » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:38 pm

You should put a big ass waste gate on the first turbo than so you can bypass a lot of exhaust to the second turbo ;)

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Wally
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Wally » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:21 pm

jonas_linder wrote:You should put a big ass waste gate on the first turbo than so you can bypass a lot of exhaust to the second turbo ;)
Exactly! You normally see big 60mm wastegates on 'normal' gasoline 4-6 cylinder engines, but I think a 44mm will be more fitting on the 1200cc engine.

Maybe I should 'close' this topic as the base engine has been sold. Once I have started building a new type 4 with A-heads, I will post updates in a new thread :wink:
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Placerpuma
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Placerpuma » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:26 pm

Wally wrote: After all that, I still have a very strong motivation to get some 3-valve twin spark OHC type 4 heads done with the old A-team.
Probably on a small-ish engine 2.0 - 2,3 ltr. You remeber the design still surely?
Image
but thats still long time away...steps have been made though :wink:
Congratulations on seeing you follow in Apfelbeck’s footsteps.
He proved that displacement was not everything, although his book gave me a headache thirty years ago.
Keep up the great work Wally.
How involved are you with the ‘apfelbeck.nl’ guys ?

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Wally
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Wally » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:23 pm

Pretty deep :mrgreen:
Lets just say I won't rest untill I have a set on an engine. I am the most fanatic of them probably, but also can't machine sh*t myself :lol:
So we need each other to make it happen. Like I wrote a few posts back, in the background we recently got a few things going, so it seems to getting back on route again. Ron even spoke about doing a facebook page to stay 'modern' :lol:
Hopefully a small update in a few weeks time after we all have a newyears meeting.
Thanks for the interest,
Walter
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gaston
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by gaston » Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:46 pm

Wally wrote:Basically this comes in its place firstly:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=138482 (1200 T1T)

After the 1200cc type 1 I hope to have finished the 36hp Land Speed Record engine and try that out, maybe try run a speed for the Vintage 36hp class records that Burly keeps. It will be 1,5ltr and all EFI and turbo'd too of course 8)

After all that, I still have a very strong motivation to get some 3-valve twin spark OHC type 4 heads done with the old A-team.
Probably on a small-ish engine 2.0 - 2,3 ltr. You remeber the design still surely?
Image
but thats still long time away...steps have been made though :wink:

Well, since you asked :lol:
Merry X-mas guys!
Engine porn :D

Get me hand on a set of this 3D sketches in real. A real cross flowing head, better chamber design, eliminating pushrods and their weight in the valve train (with all behaviors) - should sort out some limitations.

Passatman
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Passatman » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:35 pm

Wally wrote:Pretty deep :mrgreen:
Lets just say I won't rest untill I have a set on an engine. I am the most fanatic of them probably, but also can't machine sh*t myself :lol:
So we need each other to make it happen. Like I wrote a few posts back, in the background we recently got a few things going, so it seems to getting back on route again. Ron even spoke about doing a facebook page to stay 'modern' :lol:
Hopefully a small update in a few weeks time after we all have a newyears meeting.
Thanks for the interest,
Walter

Great to see that this project hasn't died. Would love to see these heads on an engine. Wally would these heads accept a 105mm sleeve.

Placerpuma
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Placerpuma » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:08 am

Wally wrote:Pretty deep :mrgreen:
Lets just say I won't rest untill I have a set on an engine. I am the most fanatic of them probably, but also can't machine sh*t myself :lol:
So we need each other to make it happen. Like I wrote a few posts back, in the background we recently got a few things going, so it seems to getting back on route again. Ron even spoke about doing a facebook page to stay 'modern' :lol:
Hopefully a small update in a few weeks time after we all have a newyears meeting.
Thanks for the interest,
Walter
Sounds like a mutually beneficial relationship, you would certainly be the right man for the job of getting some miles on one of these.
I assume you are the person receiving their Engine #3, the 2,9 liter street engine, mentioned on their website ?

[url][http://www.apfelbeck.nl//url]

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Wally
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Wally » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:38 am

Placerpuma wrote: I assume you are the person receiving their Engine #3, the 2,9 liter street engine, mentioned on their website ?

http://www.apfelbeck.nl
That was the old plan some 7 years ago, if I'am counting correctly... That nice 86 stroke crank you see there has been sold and those nice long 103mm Oettinger alu-nikasil barrels there were eventually used to build my old 2666cc (2,7ltr) n/a engine with 914 2.0 heads, which was then later rebuild to the 2,2 turbo engine of this topic...
Which makes it full circle again :)

I cannot give any more info wrt the heads guys, sorry. Its all speculation right now for me too untill we have met again and hear where everybody stands and what is possible atm.
But like I said, I have good hopes, more then ever before :wink:
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Alby
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Alby » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:32 am

Sounds like a great project Wally 8)
How would these heads compare to the boxergasse team developed heads ?(they seemed to get about 190bhp out of a 2 litre capacity motor?
I know commercial return is not your main aim here , more of a technical challenge BUT..I think if you could develope them for 200ish bhp on a 2 litre ish size engine you would be onto a winner!
I would be in the queue for a set ! :)

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Wally
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Wally » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:24 am

Alby wrote:Sounds like a great project Wally 8)
How would these heads compare to the boxergasse team developed heads ?(they seemed to get about 190bhp out of a 2 litre capacity motor?
Both cars you're referring to use porsche heads. The one on the type 1 uses 911 2,7ltr heads (90mm bore) iirc and the other one (on the type 4) uses the latest 993 heads with rocker/camboxes cast and developed by Holzapfel back in the days. That last development was called 'Overfly heads' by Holzapfel. Very cool indeed, but still using the old 2-valve porsche heads design.

The Apfelbeck heads should be better then any aircooled 911/993 head not only because it has 2 inlet valves but also because of the resulting compact pent-roof design combustion chamber (like most modern 4 valve engines), not hemi-sferical like a 911 2-valve head.
115hp/ltr should be very possible, maybe less, maybe more. Initial flow tests showed about 300 cu.ft/min at 25 or 28" (I forgot) without any port work done and that was on a 98mm bore and two old fat 914 exhaust 36mm valves from my stash used as inlet valves...

I think you understand now why I am so hell bound determined to get the team back in gear :wink:
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CobraJet
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by CobraJet » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:32 pm

OHC on a VW is a dream of many, yet reality for few.

If you do close this thread could you please post the link to the new thread about these heads?

Thanks for the great reading Wally!

Alby
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Re: Type 4 turbo: 2,2 ltr: New cooling system

Post by Alby » Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:21 pm

Wally
Thanks for confirming the differences !
Fingers crossed all will come to fruition
Will be keen to see how things progress
All the best
A

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