twin plug discussions....
- Wally
- Posts: 4563
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:01 am
Like I said, twin spark costs a lot of money, even if its made in the stock head casting. What do you think what a set of twin spark heads from Len Hofman costs? I'll answer that for you: its probably not far off from a set of EP heads if you live on this side of the pond.bj wrote:100 euro option ain't bad at all if you can afford the 3000 euro or so price tag!! PLUS shipping
The whole 'costs' versus hp-bonus is a downer on most of these discussions. Better to discuss the technical side of things, thats much more interesting imo
T4T: 2,4ltr Type 4 Turbo engine, 10.58 1/4 mi
www.apfelbeck.nl
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
www.apfelbeck.nl
"Mine isn't turbo'd to make a slow engine fast, but to make a fast engine insane" - Chip Birks
- bj
- Posts: 1156
- Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:01 am
very true. the twin plug option from len approaches the neighborhood of 1k for JUST the twin plug.
the heads i got done from EMW was close to 1K as well (they don't do twin plugs either).
maybe one day when i hit the lottery or decide that i don't need that pesky second kidney i may get the twin plugs.
how important do you think the position of the plugs are in the chamber? i realize that there are probably more efficient locations than others...but there has to be a breaking point where you can still get the majority of the benefits with just a "stick in there" position.
the heads i got done from EMW was close to 1K as well (they don't do twin plugs either).
maybe one day when i hit the lottery or decide that i don't need that pesky second kidney i may get the twin plugs.
how important do you think the position of the plugs are in the chamber? i realize that there are probably more efficient locations than others...but there has to be a breaking point where you can still get the majority of the benefits with just a "stick in there" position.
-
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 10:30 pm
bj-
Do you read the forum at Raby's Aircooled Technology? Jake has a great twin plug thread right now (Air cooled Technology forums> The engine shop-The Dyno Shop-Twin Plug Discussion).
[quote}The how important do you think the position of the plugs are in the chamber? i realize that there are probably more efficient locations than others...but there has to be a breaking point where you can still get the majority of the benefits with just a "stick in there" position.[quote]
Why not ask him?
Do you read the forum at Raby's Aircooled Technology? Jake has a great twin plug thread right now (Air cooled Technology forums> The engine shop-The Dyno Shop-Twin Plug Discussion).
[quote}The how important do you think the position of the plugs are in the chamber? i realize that there are probably more efficient locations than others...but there has to be a breaking point where you can still get the majority of the benefits with just a "stick in there" position.[quote]
Why not ask him?
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22520
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: twin plug discussions....
Does anyone have a pic of the backside of some twinplug T4 heads as a sanity check?
Resurrecting an oldie but goodiy, note that European motor Works will twinplug a pair of T4 heads for $400, today.
I need a bulletproof way to put a plug, there, now, without potenially spending thousands doing multiple sets of heads, as I have a weird little side project in work that puts Bosch GDi injectors in the stock plug hole for what I hope are obvious reasons.
Thanks to Type4unleashed for his wisdom and help.(and plug part#)
EMW et al apparently use a 10mm solid plug insert from Timesert and the corresponding cutter kit.
It does look as if minor welding would be very helpful, probably not "must remove seats" level, just to have something for the Timesert to seat on and provide cooling.
The reason for doing 1.7l head first is the plan is to do a MS2 controlled GDi turbo 103x66 with some qsc nickasils I sniped on ebay (they are indeed 103mm, all the same length and round where the rings go...) and to try using the head as the cylinder spacer as I have ranted about for years.
IIRC the Nickies V2 eventually tried a similar design, i never heard feedback about how well the extra ~4mm of meat in the deck helped.
I am currently molesting a ~scrap 1.7L head to sort out the angles, and plan to make permanant jigs, possibly allowing it to be done with hand tools, as the jig will (hopefully) guide the cutters.
I already bought a set of the required Denso IU20 plugs off Ebay for $38.50 shipped.
Resurrecting an oldie but goodiy, note that European motor Works will twinplug a pair of T4 heads for $400, today.
I need a bulletproof way to put a plug, there, now, without potenially spending thousands doing multiple sets of heads, as I have a weird little side project in work that puts Bosch GDi injectors in the stock plug hole for what I hope are obvious reasons.
Thanks to Type4unleashed for his wisdom and help.(and plug part#)
EMW et al apparently use a 10mm solid plug insert from Timesert and the corresponding cutter kit.
It does look as if minor welding would be very helpful, probably not "must remove seats" level, just to have something for the Timesert to seat on and provide cooling.
The reason for doing 1.7l head first is the plan is to do a MS2 controlled GDi turbo 103x66 with some qsc nickasils I sniped on ebay (they are indeed 103mm, all the same length and round where the rings go...) and to try using the head as the cylinder spacer as I have ranted about for years.
IIRC the Nickies V2 eventually tried a similar design, i never heard feedback about how well the extra ~4mm of meat in the deck helped.
I am currently molesting a ~scrap 1.7L head to sort out the angles, and plan to make permanant jigs, possibly allowing it to be done with hand tools, as the jig will (hopefully) guide the cutters.
I already bought a set of the required Denso IU20 plugs off Ebay for $38.50 shipped.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:56 pm
Re: twin plug discussions....
Interesting...
Seeing that you are going GDI, do you plan to have your 10mm plug at the top, next to existing plug, like in aviation applications? Or on opposite side, at the bottom?
Seeing that you are going GDI, do you plan to have your 10mm plug at the top, next to existing plug, like in aviation applications? Or on opposite side, at the bottom?
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22520
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: twin plug discussions....
The current plan is to put the injector next to the factory plug, over the exhaust valve, aimed at the second plug in the "better" location other side of the chamber, conveniently one short skip across the exhaust valve.
That should work well in many ways...
That should work well in many ways...
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- Bills914-4
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:09 am
Re: twin plug discussions....
Pile what kind of pic's are you looking for ? I posted a few of my twin plug heads ( Jorge @ EMW did the plug mod ) in the Ignition forum ( 2nd page megajolt thread ) if that doesn't help I'll see what other pic's I have that might help ? Bill D.
- Piledriver
- Moderator
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Re: twin plug discussions....
Thanks, that's exactly what I needed!
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 6&start=16
I remembered someone had it done recently, I just couldn't remember who/where the pics were.
For some reason the thread didn't come up in twin plug searches, or I missed it..
If you rattle the MS devs I'm pretty sure the twin plug stagger could easily be in MS3-1.4, I cannot ask further as dual plugs are still in the form of a jig I'm making.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 6&start=16
I remembered someone had it done recently, I just couldn't remember who/where the pics were.
For some reason the thread didn't come up in twin plug searches, or I missed it..
If you rattle the MS devs I'm pretty sure the twin plug stagger could easily be in MS3-1.4, I cannot ask further as dual plugs are still in the form of a jig I'm making.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- bj
- Posts: 1156
- Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:01 am
Re: twin plug discussions....
Maybe a silly question...but how do you change the plugs on the bottom? Pull the pr tubes? Or is there enough room to get a socket/ratchet in there?
I have a set of EMWs 103mm cylinders...sitting...waiting...hmmmm
BJ
I have a set of EMWs 103mm cylinders...sitting...waiting...hmmmm
BJ
- Piledriver
- Moderator
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- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: twin plug discussions....
Iridium plugs last for ages, so it shouldn't be too much bother.bj wrote:Maybe a silly question...but how do you change the plugs on the bottom? Pull the pr tubes? Or is there enough room to get a socket/ratchet in there?
I have a set of EMWs 103mm cylinders...sitting...waiting...hmmmm
BJ
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 7404
- Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 12:01 am
Re: twin plug discussions....
My heads have a lot of welding on the bottom for the sixth studding. I'm not sure if I will have room for the dual plugs.
They are 1.7 914 heads, 48x40, welded ports, six studs per cylinder, posted exhaust/bore support, 7mm guides and valves, etc.
They are 1.7 914 heads, 48x40, welded ports, six studs per cylinder, posted exhaust/bore support, 7mm guides and valves, etc.
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Steve
My Baja Build
My Baja Build
- Piledriver
- Moderator
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- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: twin plug discussions....
I don't think there would be an issue looking at the pics, the plugs point toward the ~center of the rocker box.
(at the midline of the bore centers)
You can see where the cutter setup (or clearance for it ) kissed the casting on one side on WLD419s pics
I see you went with the tubular inserts on the backside, I'm considering that in addition to the step cut and maybe welding at the 5th/6th stud locations for max deck rigidity.
I see little welding on the intake ports, how'd you do 48s?
(perhaps a missing picture)
I want to see how much power 39x33 valves and ~stock intake ports will support, cheap experiment.
(at the midline of the bore centers)
You can see where the cutter setup (or clearance for it ) kissed the casting on one side on WLD419s pics
I see you went with the tubular inserts on the backside, I'm considering that in addition to the step cut and maybe welding at the 5th/6th stud locations for max deck rigidity.
I see little welding on the intake ports, how'd you do 48s?
(perhaps a missing picture)
I want to see how much power 39x33 valves and ~stock intake ports will support, cheap experiment.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- bj
- Posts: 1156
- Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:01 am
Re: twin plug discussions....
Pile,
But would you still have to remove the tubes?
BJ
But would you still have to remove the tubes?
BJ
- bj
- Posts: 1156
- Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:01 am
Re: twin plug discussions....
Steve,
I'll bet someone would buy those heads if you wanted to start fresh.
BJ
I'll bet someone would buy those heads if you wanted to start fresh.
BJ