My first type4, probably 2056

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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:24 am

It wouldn't really be a problem to order from separate vendors, so buy the crankshaft from DPR and pistons, cylinders and connecting rods from EMW. By the time they arrive in Europe, with taxes and transport, they will be still a bit cheaper than the AA cranks sold by Orratech or Vwheritage.
Regarding Chevy journals, I saw on DPR site that teh smallest stroke is 80mm. And if using type1 journals, there are no 5.325 conencting rods... So it seems I must stick with 2l journals. But I can throw a question to DPR if they can make 78mm cranks with chevy journals, and also to EMW to see if they also sell DPR cranks.

What do you think about Keith Black pistons? I've only heard good thing about them. Is it really worth the effort to buy the more expensive JE pistons?

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Piledriver
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:56 am

TZepeSH wrote:It wouldn't really be a problem to order from separate vendors, so buy the crankshaft from DPR and pistons, cylinders and connecting rods from EMW. By the time they arrive in Europe, with taxes and transport, they will be still a bit cheaper than the AA cranks sold by Orratech or Vwheritage.
Regarding Chevy journals, I saw on DPR site that teh smallest stroke is 80mm. And if using type1 journals, there are no 5.325 conencting rods... So it seems I must stick with 2l journals. But I can throw a question to DPR if they can make 78mm cranks with chevy journals, and also to EMW to see if they also sell DPR cranks.

What do you think about Keith Black pistons? I've only heard good thing about them. Is it really worth the effort to buy the more expensive JE pistons?
DPR can sell you ~any stroke/rod journal combination you like, they make the cranks they sell.
Not listed does not mean you can't order one, it just means it may not be sitting on the shelf.
If you wanted say a stock 2L stroke crank with Chevy or even Subaru journals and no counterweights, it would not be any issue.
Aircooled.net stocks DPR cranks, might want to check there.

EMW can do/has a lot of stuff not listed on their website too, a lot of older VW shops suck at the whole WWWeb thing.
SACO/German is worse, they don't even do email well or answer their phone, but they make/sell some stuff no one else does.

The JEs/Wisecos commonly sold are for racing/boost and unlikely to live past 20K miles as they are buttery soft, but can take some knock without breaking. Ring grooves wear out quick/ring seal goes away.

You can order forged pistons in 4032 aluminum that will wear ~ like stock and are still very durable.
Everybody makes them, just not for VWs, why is a mystery to me.

Any production car with forged pistons will have 4032 or a very similar alloy forging, the soft ones won't make it through any modern warranty without blowby issues.

Arias, Ross, Wiseco are likely to be faster than getting them from JE particularly at this time of the year, and probably cheaper.
They should cost little>no more that the soft 2xxx alloy ones.

The KB hypers wear like iron but are brittle, not for use >~7K or with any boost or any significant risk of knock.
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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:24 am

Time to revive the thread. I started to move the things, and put the money where my mouth is.
I discussed with Jakob from GetBackOnTrack, and he will prepare a nice set of heads, 42x36, double springs. I will also get from him KB pistons and original cylinders bored to 96mm. Camshaft will be 163/86B. Lifters Scat lube-a-lobe. All other parts to build the short block, bearings, bushings, etc. also from Jakob.
When I receive the parts, I'll start with line boring, tap and plug the oil galleys, grinding the crankshaft to first undersize, change the bushings in the connecting rods, then build the short block. Then finish the upright cooling. It shall be ready by the end of the year. I know, a lot of time, but I have also other responsibilities.
Next winter I plan to order the exhaust, CSP Python, and work on the fuel and spark management with ITBs and Megasquirt 2 Extra.
I'll post pics when I get the goodies, in about a month or so.

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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by wreck » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:35 am

That sounds like a nice combination . keep us posted . I'm doing my own up right shroud conversion but like you life get's in the the way .
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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:39 am

I have some questions related to the oil system.
In the Cali book, the oil filter is used in the stock location and the oil cooler is replaced by an adapter to route two hoses to the oil cooler placed in the doghouse.

I read that the original oil filter adapter has a bypass valve, so when the pressure is high the oil is not going through the filter. Where is this bypass valve, is it in the filter mount or somewhere in the engine case?
This is redundant, as the oil filters also have an integrated bypass valve. I was thinking to drill and tap on top of the oil filter adapter and place a screw to block the ball down and never use the bypass (if that is the bypass). Or I can drill from the side and tap the bypass passage. Was this done before?

Does the type4 have a thermostat to route the oil through the cooler or is it always going through it? If it does not have a thermostat, wouldn't it be better to bypass the original filter location, and use a sandwich plate adapter on the original filter mount, with integrated thermostat? Like the one in this link: http://csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/cshop2/front ... ort=0&all=

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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by wreck » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:46 am

The bypass is the one in the filter adaptor , the oil pressure relief is a form of thermostat , cold thick oil bypasses the filter and cooler back to the sump . I run a Mocal oil filter sandwich block with a thermostat . it opens around 80C sending oil to my coolers .
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:51 am

The filter mount contains a ball and spring bypass, its relatively easy to plug.
Its actually a much better design vs. what most filters contain---I wouldn't sweat it much.
Given a choice I'd find a filter w/o the bypass and keep the factory one in the mount.

The t4 oil cooler circuit "thermostat" is essentially the same as t1, is only pressure based, so a big pump or thick oil can produce unexpected (to some) very high oil temps.
With a stock size pump and clearances/spec oil viscosities it works extremely reliably unless you much with the system specs too much.

You can do the oil line routing many, many ways, but note the filter is direct off the pump, before the main case pressure relief valve.

If its going in a bug, you should try the stock-ish setup first, with the cooler in the t1 location, and might try a t1 cooler, first.
I'm running a t1 cooler in my squareback (t4 motor installed) for ac clearance reasons, oil temps have proven to be a non-issue, stuck in Dallas, Texas traffic with the AC on when its >100F in the shade, and probable 140F air coming off the pavement.
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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:48 am

Thank you for the replies.
The oil system diagrams make it all clear:
Image
Image

So, my problem is that I don't like to get un-filtered oil to the engine. I can not avoid that, either the bypass in the oil filter mount or the filter itself will do it. I understand that the filter might be damaged due to too high pressure. I'll leave it unchanged, and maybe use a filter without bypass. At what pressure does it bypass? Maybe that happens in just some very special situations, on extremely high pressures that I will never encounter, and I don't have to worry about it.

But from the cooling point of view, I don't really like the idea of "high pressure means cool oil, low pressure means hot oil". What happens at high RPM, when the pressure is also high and oil hot? will it bypass the cooler because it thinks that high pressure also means cool? I like that the plunger is used to regulate the oil pressure, but not the dual purpose pressure and temperature. I am more confident in a sandwich plate adapter that relies on actual oil temperature to route the oil to the cooler.
I am using a type4 cooler mounted in the doghouse, the Cali modification.
I will try to use the original type4 pump if it is in good shape. otherwise I will use a type1 oil pump with o-ring modification.
Regarding the o-ring modification, here is something I don't understand. I can't find a topic that describes the procedure completely. If the problem is loose fit, why put the o-ring around the big oil pump body and not just around the inlet/output holes in the pump? How does that help? Or, how is it actually done: plug the outlet and use a pump cover with output hole and then a piece of hose to the engine block, back to the galley?

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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:36 pm

A loose pump body can cause direct pressure loss as well as sucking in air, the oring helps both, but a pump that actually fits properly would be better.

I was lucky to stumble across a couple factory T1 pumps in great shape, easy to mod as needed.

It is easy to oring a whole round pump body, machining an oring groove across the face of a curved surface (around the ports) is very non-trivial, esp as they would probably need to be key-cut (wider at the bottom) to retain the oring.

IIRC the stock system bypasses the cooler at ~42 PSI, which is just over where the hot oil pressure would be at cruise, with the correct sized pump and spec oil and clearances.

Its actually an elegant solution, and works perfectly if you don't muck with it via a big pump or the wrong oil viscosity.

A high RPM racing engine is a different animal, with different needs.
Few people actually need one.

The cam and CR are tied: With a web 73, 8.6 is about right in a beetle, a little lower probably in a bay bus.
A 494 is a 242 degree cam at .050", but at 104LC doesn't need much more compression, perhaps 9:1, if on 108LC a little more compression would probably work better.
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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:38 am

How can I remove the head studs? Two of them do not want to move. I tried to use two nuts blocked together, I tried vice grips, I tried to heat the aluminum block around them, I sprayed WD40, and still nothing. They are just flexing.

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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:54 pm

WD-40 is literally "water displacer (40th version)" and a poor excuse for penetrating oil---It wasn't made to be a penetrating oil.

Consumer Reports did a test awhile back and a 50/50 mix of ATF and acetone blew away every commercially available penetrating oil.
Once warm, soak it inside and out a few times, and heat the area up, tap on the end of the studs some to help loosen things up, they will come out. Patience is key. Putting a heat lamp inside and wrapping with an old blanket overnight is pretty effective way to start in cool weather.
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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:50 pm

Thank you for the advice. I will get next week atf and acetone and try again. I always thought of wd40 as a great "tool". The engine block is not that cold, i keep it in the annex where i have heat and i'll move it near the radiator. I used a gas torch for copper pipe brazing to heat the engine block.

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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Bruce.m » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:54 am

I only use wd40 to clean tools after a job. Quick squirt on cloth and wipe over.

The best way to get steel hardware out of a aluminium thread hole is heat. At 60C it will undo easily as the aluminium expands much further than the steel. In cold temps they seize together due to the differing expansion rates.
With a brake calliper, I use a electric heat gun. It would be easier to use an oven with an engine block but it better be spotlessly clean or your house will be stinking for days!!

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:05 pm

Update: yesterday i got atf and acetone, i made 50-50 blend, sprayed, wait 1 hour, try. Nothing, not even a fraction mm movement. Sprayed more, wait some 6 hours, try again. Nothing. Spray some more, wait till morning, spray more, wait till evening. Nothing. I'm thinking to put the case halves in the dishwasher machine, clean them well then put them in the oven.
What temperature shall i set for the oven, and how much time?
Wife agrees, i don't have such issues. She calls me mad that i'm not working on the engine inside the house but in the annex.

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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:23 pm

I forgot to mention, i also tapped the studs and i heated the engine block with a gas torch around the studs.

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