My first type4, probably 2056

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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:44 am

That was the first idea, this is why I kept the rod. But I do not mind to work a bit more and do the job right. How would I clean the passage otherwise? Is the "deep" plug supposed to be also 3/8 or smaller? In this case, how would the external plug seal, or would I have to use a very long plug? Maybe the passage plug is 1/8 and the case plug is 3/8?
OR, I could plug the rod paasage from both sides (cam and pump) with some small plugs, and the big one with 3/8 as it should?

Where is the 1/8 plug from the kit is supposed to go?

Clatter, I want to clean everything very well, and be sure nothing pops out. If i'm putting big bucks in the engine, I don't want to take chances to ruin it by not doing some simple jobs. I do not find it very hard to plugg all holes. It's the same if I plug 5 or 10, so why not all?

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Clatter
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Clatter » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:51 am

Can you post a pic of your mechanical fuel pump area?

Does this case have the 2nd pressure relief valve?

I totally forgot to discuss this part in my build thread...

Many like to replace the spring on the 2nd relief valve plunger with a solid rod,
Thereby making it like the later cases with a single relief.

EMW makes and sells the little solid rod bit.

But you would only need to think about this if you have two relief valves...
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
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Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:29 am

It's a single relief case. Do you still need the pics?
At a quick glance, the fuel pump rod bore does not seen to have any side hole to the oil passage. I expected to see such a hole, because I remember reading that if the rod is missing, the engine will not bulid oil pressure because it would be spilled back to the case by that hole. I have to clean a bit and look closer.

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CobraJet
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by CobraJet » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:55 pm

Were does the fuel pump bolt up to the cases on a carbureted engine?

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sideshow
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by sideshow » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:25 pm

Under the #1 cylinder flywheel side
Yeah some may call it overkill, but you can't have too much overkill.

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Piledriver
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:04 am

The pushrod guide completely blocks the oil passage, not the rod.
If the guide is still present, you do not need to plug that passage.
The pump pushrod gets splash oil from the rear cam bearing.

I made the mistake of drilling that before it was widely known.
II had to put a 1/8" or 1/4" plug deep set and a 3/8" plug on the outer to seal the outside.

Clean it up good and post a pic, the guide is pressed in so it doesn't just fall out.
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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:34 am

The guide is present. How can I clean the passage if I don't pull the plug? And how can it fall, as Clatter says, if the passage is actually plugged by the guide? The rod longitudinal axis is not crossing the axis of the plug, so it might be that the guide does not plug the passage fully and oil pressure still gets to the plug?
IMG_5550.JPG
The fuel pump location:
IMG_5551.JPG
I will continue here the discussion on rod bolts.
There is a topic on TOS on ARP bolts, with pics that show that 104-6006. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=515189
So the only good possibility seems the Chevy set with a bit more work. What means re-sizing the big end? Boring the hole again? Milling the sides? In this case, wouldn't the rods have a bigger hole, so the bearings will not fit, and won't they become too thin and have too much lateral play? Do they have to be welded before rework?
It seems safer to buy new rods with ARP bolts installed. But if I do so, I might just as well buy a 78mm crank, but I find it too expensive to do so in Europe. Rods are ~490 Euros, the crank 800 Euros, and if I order them from the US, it will get to the same price due to transport and taxes...
So, how bad are actually the original bolts? Are they so weak as described? I wouldn't expect the bolts to just snap, but I do not have experience with this. Has anybody actually had snapped bolts, or is it just a myth that they are so weak? I am sure that ARP are MUCH better, but how much can original bolts take?
I am much inclined to put the work in the original rods, but I want to understand what that means. It will fit the budget and it will be safer for the engine.
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wreck
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by wreck » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:21 am

The fuel pump rod guide didn't fully cover the gallery when I did mine , I found the end of the tap I had to make a bottom tap so I could cut more thread , I also ground the plug down a little to get clearance to the flywheel , I wasn't really happy with the result and used Devcon on the plug when I fitted it .
The next motor I'm building ,I'm just going to peened the stock plug and seal with devcon , A good friend who is a professional engine builder uses this method and has never had a failure .
With the rods , an engine reconditioning company will reem the bolt holes to use the chev bolts , then surface grind the mating surfaces between the rod and cap .This will make the bore slightly smaller so they can then re bore the rod to the correct standard dimensions . As Pile has mentioned that if you have to pay for all this work then it will start costing almost as much as a new set of H beam rods . I'd get in touch with Jacob at GBT and see what he does with rods on your kind of build .
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TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:30 pm

Good point on peening, I can try that and clean the passages from the lifter bores.
On the rods, of course Jakob can do that. But the budget at the moment is not enough. I need to make things in time. Now I put all the money on cylinder heads, P&L how Clatter likes to say, camshaft, and 1.7l 8mm rockers plus all bearings.
Then I take it step by step. Next month I'll get the crankshaft to the grinder, then the crankcase for boring. Then tap and plug the galleys. Then I can think about the rods, in two or three months. I think I can find an auto shop to do the rods. If it will cost me ~200 euros for the bolts and machining, I'm good. It will be better than 4 or 500 in new rods.
I'm not in a hurry with the engine, it will take me almost all year to make the shortblock, but I'm happy to have started. And more money on bits and pieces, but I'm ready for that.

I would like to thank you all for your valuable advice and taking the time to read my ideas and respond. I know many questions are simple or stupid, and I appreciate that you keep eduacting me. And I know I have the issue to think one problem in several ways, maybe find an easier solution and not take the well beaten path. This is my first type 4 build, but not my first engine build with all care taken on measurements and getting everything right. I already learned so many details/tricks different than on a type1.

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:53 am

I pulled the plugs, except #1, 3 and 12. Now, cleaning in the dishwasher :D .

The oil pump is really bad, I'll have to install a type1. Which one shall I take? 26mm, 30mm? and which model, before 71 for camshaft with three rivets or after 71 for camshaft with 4 rivets?
Here are pics. One half is scored:
IMG_5554.JPG
The other half too:
IMG_5557.JPG
The drive shaft is bad, worn out by the camshaft:
IMG_5555.JPG
The gears have a lot of play, it can be even seen bare eyes:
IMG_5558.JPG
IMG_5558_detail.JPG
I'm sure I can get it to a shop to mill all surfaces back in specs, but the drive shaft I can not repair. Maybe it's better to use a larger gears type1 pump. I might get a pump which will not fit, being smaller in diameter (had this problem several times with new pumps), but I can O-ring it and solve teh issue partially.
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Clatter
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Clatter » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:28 am

TBH, I have never had a case with the pump rod sleeve before,
so good on Pile for catching that one!

Have had both stock rods with ARP bolts, and also China AA, but neither have failed, so nothing to report..
Most any automotive machine shop that works on real cars can rebuild the rods after installing better bolts.
How hard you plan on driving it will determine what you might want to do.

Before you write off the stroker as too expensive, consider that most use type 1 rods (cheaper)

Many prefer to run the 26 pump, as it is what the oil system was designed to work with.
Early flat cam pump, BTW..
Sounds like you ae on the right track with o-ring, and maybe anodizing?
The key to running the T1 pump is milling the cam gear and bolts..
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:32 pm

Easier said than done. Around here parts modification or rebuild is not usually the route to go. Tuning is usually just "chip tuning" on cheap german cars. There are few really modified cars (and I'm speaking now about all kinds of cars, not only aircooleds). Real performance aircooleds can be counted on the fingers of one hand, most stop at some wheels or some chrome, and engines are sent in Hungary for stock rebuilds. It's not a fact of third world country, but a lack of culture for what modifications really mean: measuring with 3 decinals precision, taking time to measure twice, precision machining etc. Auto shops just deal with easy jobs. Older cars are sitting for montsh for a paint, because it's faster and more profitable to paint several bumped cars. And usually precision equipment is out of tolerance, having the last check and calibration years ago. And there is the other side, very good shops, but which do not work with individuals, but with larger companies. Unique, small parts fabrication is not profitable for them.

To do some real precision jobs I need to find older mechanics who kept precision equipment and took care to have it calibrated as per manual, as they were taught years ago. This is the situation with the guy who will grind the crankshaft and the one who will bore the case. I have to discuss with one of them about the rods. I changed the small end bushings before on other rods and reamed to spec, so I expect to be able to do the big end too.
About anodization, I have to look very well, usually the companies do not work with individuals, as I said, but maybe I can find a way. It's a good idea, if the oil pump will be a bit smaller than expected. I can measure and ask for specific thickness to get it in tolerance.
Same for CNC milling, I know a small company who can o some flanges, but I need to ask for prices ( I expect very high due to unicity and quantity) and they will only do it when they have time between projects from larger companies. We'll see.

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:48 am

All right, it might have sounded a bit harsh what I wrote last night. The situation of parts modification and fabrication might not be that bad, but it isn't easy either.
About stroker, I ruled it out already. For me, it's not only the cost of parts. I already ordered pistons and bearings, so these would also need to be changed. I would have to wait about one year to raise the money for the crank and rods. I just put a lot of money in this order, and I can not afford one more big spend. The crank and rods are the foundation of the short block, I can't work on anything else until I get them. And I do not wait to wait anymore. The other bits and pieces (like ARP bolts, Porsche adjusters, oil pump etc) I can buy one by one when the time comes, is easier on the budget and I can afford to work this way.
Also, the stroker has an impact on gearbox, so more money there. If I were to make a better gearbox, with all the cost, I would just get a Subaru 5 speed swap, but that's 2000 euros more. Porsche 915 the same or more for a beaten sports car part that could fail any time, not my wish. I want to keep the original AT gearbox, adding a super diff and HD side cover. I hope I can do this at home, as I don't have the special tools for gearbox. And around here there is literally no shop who can work on gearboxes. I will still have the risk of spinning 3rd and 4th, but I trust myself that I will be easy on the throttle. After all, I am building the engine for daily drive not racing.

TZepeSH
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by TZepeSH » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:21 pm

Tomorrow I want to clean the case halves. In the dishwasher. Any last words of advice, not to ruin the engine? Like use cold or hot water, use 1/2 dishwasher tablet or a full one, anything else to keep in mind? I can run the program without detergent for good rinsing, maybe better than in the bathtub.
I should have tried to put the oil pump this evening, with a full tablet and hot water to see what happens. Maybe test first on a dirty cylinder head?
Or take the case to the carwash down the street.

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Piledriver
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Re: My first type4, probably 2056

Post by Piledriver » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:12 pm

Pull it out as soon as the wash cycle finishes and rinse well with hot water, scrub as needed
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