Heat in a bug with a Type IV Engine

mike75bug · Post by **mike75bug** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 7:03 pm

I am looking at getting a Type IV engine built for my '75 Bug next summer. My question is about a heating system for it. It is pretty cold around here (Maine) and this bug is my daily driver.

Has anyone had any success with setting up a heating system in this type of setup? If so, please post the details.

Thanks...Mike

Shad Laws · Post by **Shad Laws** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 7:20 pm

Hello-

Sure, there's a few ways to heat. The most effective, of course, is to get an old gas heater - it'll heat you up nicely! If you want to keep the passive heating system idea, then there are other options. The ones I know of revolve around using stock 411/early bus heat exchangers. They can be shortened along with the surrounding shrouding to fit in a bug well. I think there's a company somewhere that sells them already modified like this...

Or, see if you can fit them on without shortening them. What I did on my Ghia is I got a pair of these boxes and closed off the openings that used to go to the pancake shroud (each one has two inlets - one from the shroud and one from a blower fan). Then, the blower fan ones (the ones on top) have heater hoses going to them from the fan shroud. On the outlet end of the heat exchanger, you can get a set of control boxes from a T4 bus engine (get one left and one right - the arms are on different sides) and modify them slightly. First, plug the end of the control box that used to vent to the atmosphere. Then, weld on arms that are 180 degrees off where the stock ones are and drill small holes through them. Put some bail-type wire (a broken throttle cable works well) through them and attach the other end to a barrel clamp, far enough away so that it just meets the heater cable coming from the car. The description here may make no sense, but build the heater system with the engine and heat exchangers installed on the car and you'll see what I mean. From the control boxes (with the outlets pointed upward), put standard heater hoses that go up to the accordian tubes and you're done! You may have to figure out creative ways to seal the various tubes, but it isn't too bad. It works pretty well provided that you're not just idling around town, just like a normal bug heater system...

Take care,
Shad

mike75bug · Post by **mike75bug** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 8:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Shad Laws:
<B>Hello-

Sure, there's a few ways to heat. The most effective, of course, is to get an old gas heater <deleted>

...What I did on my Ghia is I got a pair of these boxes and closed off the openings ...<deleted></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks. I might have a lead on a gas heater, I will see what happens there.

I still don't understand totally, but I am new to aircooled heating systems, so I am going to print out this message and go home to my Bentley and Muir books.

Thanks again, I might ask specific questions once I get a handle on it.

Mike

Shad Laws · Post by **Shad Laws** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 9:29 pm

Hello-

The gas heater has no comparison, except for perhaps a propane heater (but no originality points here

. It was an option for the T4 for the clock to be wired to the gas heater so it'd turn on at a certain time. Imagine that... you leave for work at 7:30 in the morning in a car that has been preheating for 20 minutes to a nice, crispy 80F on a -10F day

.

The T1 heating system (fresh air type) is this: the fan provides an air source, which is directly connected to the heater boxes. At the front (FIF) end of the boxes, there are normally-closed flaps. When closed, they block the air from exiting the heater boxes. When open (by the cables pulled from the levers between the seats), they allow the higher-pressure air to travel through the accordian tubes and into the heater ducts.

The T3 system is similar, but a bit more involved. They have thermostats in the heater ducts

I'm not familiar with the pancake T4 system beyond the engine, i.e. I don't know about heater ducts, cables, etc. Anyway, the heater boxes are of a similar arrangement. One important difference is that the 411 and (I think) early bus heater boxes are simply exhaust pipes with sheet metal around them - no fins like the bug. This is because they are used to preheat the air that goes to the gas heater - that's it. The heater boxes have TWO inlets - one from the fan shroud (which is closed only when the fan isn't spinning thanks to some little flaps, so the heater air isn't lost to the shroud when the engine isn't running) and one from the electric blowers on each box. Beyond this, I only know specifics on early bus stuff... T4 may vary, I dunno. The outlet of the box goes to a short connecting pipe which then goes to the control boxes which are cable controlled. When the cable is "off", the boxes vent to the atmosphere, dumping a little of the shroud air to the atmosphere continually and also flushing out that disgusting burnt oil smell that accumulates

. When "on", they go to the heater ducting.

Take care,
Shad

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 7:15 am

Shad,
Re: the shortened heater box approach and
making use of the one speed stock bus
heater/blower motor. I sent Scott Fraser a
fresh blower motor and he assured me that
a pulse wave modulator can cut the voltage
to the fan motor to get a constant slow blow
to keep the heat exchangers cool during
normal operaton and a pot on the dash to speed the motor up for heating purposes. The
only downshot is AM radio interference. He
or I will post the wiring and component
layout when he's finished.
Joe
Oregon Performance Products http://www.spiretech.com/~opshroud

MASSIVE TYPE IV · Post by **MASSIVE TYPE IV** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:11 am

I have Gas heaters in all my cars...All of them are BN4 units, and I have 2 of them in my bus, plus the stock heat system..

Mike has been talking to me about the engine he desires. He wants to add a TURBO later, so heater boxes score a big "O" with his application.....

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Jake Raby
Raby's Aircooled Technology
www.aircooledtechnology.com

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 10:46 am

The eberspacher heater in the type four, 411/412 is one of the more complex, but dependable models. If you get one...be sure to get all of the parts. Exhaust tube, chamber, blower/mixer, blower for air circulation, glo/spark plug, coil, fuel pump, quad relay,thermo high switch cut off relay, duct thermostat, dash control switch with preheat timer, pyrometer/thermo switch (that probe thingy) and the complete undamaged wiring harness. These systems are actually very easy to maintain and service. Better pick up as many spare parts as possible. They rarely break...but are rarely found either. The pre-heat toimer that shad spoke about is actually a type 3 option. It was sometimes fitted to the type four as a dealer option. Both vehicles will need t o be fitted with the second battery and battery isolator circuit, or else the pre-start sequence on the heater ,which pulls about 23 amps on start-up, dropping to 7-10 running, will zap a cold battery in very cold weather. Any good battery isolater system should work, or a 75 amp alternator kit and a single gel-type deep cycle battery ( the yellow top optimus batteries work well). One hint...either check the fuel line every year...religiously, or just replace it every 2 years...without fail...or put a metal one on it like I did...so you can forget about that aspect. Ray

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 10:51 am

After reading my post...let me clarify. You will not need an extra battery to run the heater. Just one if you want to use the clock/alarm function where the engine will not be running for extended periods of time during pre-heat. I would be suprised if you could even locate one of these...they are rare. All of the type 4 models...with the dash thermostat unit, had a ten minute pre-heat timer built in. You still have to run out to the car to push the button in and turn counter-clockwise. Ray

Single Cab · Post by **Single Cab** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 1:24 am

You could always get one of the new electronic heater timers that work with the old Eberspatchers.

Personally I love the design that was used in the 411/412 models and have a soft spot/weakness for them as anyone who has been in my garage knows. I just can't leave them in the yards when I find one. The ultimate though is the beast that I pulled out of a late model bay window bus. It is huge!

Thomas

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 7:27 am

Mike,

I have a stewart warner from a '68 bug that has been completely rebuilt by Ark Mirvis. Shoot me an email if interested and I can send some details.

Gary

Va914 · Post by **Va914** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 8:32 am

Has anyone thought about using an electric heater from JC Withney? I was also looking for something to just tak ethe edge off the cold morrnings.

I have heard people talking about the smell and oil residue from the heat exchanges. Any thoughts?

Thanks guys

ray greenwood · Post by **ray greenwood** » Wed Sep 26, 2001 10:00 am

Single cab...I know the system you mean. It basically has the same components of the 411/412 system...but a much fatter chamber. I don't know the BTU rating of the bay window model...but on the 411/412...its 18,000 BTU...not bad! The one in the 412 is a really sweet system. Very smooth to operate...has a nice set-able thermostat in the box on the dash. I'm not familiar with the later model electronic timer. Got a part # Its not really too hard to put something in line with the regukar timer for setting an am wake-up call. There are really only two main power contacts in the plug. The rest go to the pyrometer/thermoprobe and the in-duct thermostat for setting heat levels. Va914...the only problem with the electric element heaters is their current draw. To put out any real heat...they generally draw at least 20 amps...not including fan. But hey, if you drive a 914...you are not heating too much space anyway! Ray

hondakiller · Post by **hondakiller** » Fri Sep 28, 2001 12:01 am

the gas heater out of the 1973 camper bus that i got my 1.7 out of is still in good shape but it is pretty big, where would one mount this most effectively and safely in a type one?

Single Cab · Post by **Single Cab** » Fri Sep 28, 2001 1:39 pm

You know I wouldn't even attempt it. Sure you would probably have enough heat to melt the seat covers but a nice compact 411/412 unit would work great and take up less space. If I were you I would try to sell or swap the bus unit and get a 411/412 unit.

I have 2 VW Things. One is a '73 which has it's own gas heater but the '74 doesn't have one. When I lift the car and get the rear end fixed for the Type 4 install I won't have the heater boxes anymore. My idea is to take advantage of the extra space from the lift and mount the 411/412 gas heater above the tranny similar to how VW did it.

Thomas

Beatlenut · Post by **Beatlenut** » Fri Sep 28, 2001 2:36 pm

I mounted a gas heater out of a 73 camperbus into a 72 superbeetle. It fit prefectly in the spare tire compartment area and had two ducts going to the drivers and passengers compartments respectively. Man you want to talk about some heat!! Worked great for drying wey socks/shoes.

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