street / hill climb combination

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MegaManx
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:06 am

street / hill climb combination

Post by MegaManx » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:50 am

Hey all
So first of all, I know that there are a lot of newbie posts here, and I suppose that this one is the same, but I have been doing lots and lots of reading to try and get my knowledge up before posting, but sorry if some parts have already have been covered elsewhere, but I’m after some opinions on engine combinations and finer points as this is my first T4 build.
So, to start off with my name is Lachlan I live in Queensland Australia, and I’ve recently managed to acquire a Manx project (very hard to get road going ones in AUS) and am building it correctly as a street / track/ hill climb/ weekend car and am now looking for an approx. 180-200HP type 4 combination to go into it (I’m basing HP off a turbo 1915 Manx that I know).
I’m after a combo that will give me good 0-100KPH (0-60mph) times, that is quick and responsive to rev and drive, but at the same time not a toque monster that will lift the front end at every opportunity. So what combo should I go for?
At this stage I’m leaning more towards a 2275 (78mm crank with 96mm pistons) and big valve heads (48x38 dual springs) just because it will not require any case machining (not that that’s a big problem for me) and should give reasonable HP. However that said I haven’t decided on/ need advice on cam durations, or whether to go carb or injection, or what base exhaust to use (was thinking csp python but it’s expensive).
So what do you all think? There is only a hand full of people that will even touch a t4 in AUS so good advice is very hard to find. Also I hope to run a reco 5rib Trans (or subarugears) with 930cvs.
Last edited by MegaManx on Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

damo99
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Location: melbourne australia

Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by damo99 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:48 am

i am building a 2270 type 4 now
anything type 4 will be expensive, if your worried about the exhaust being expensive your in for a shock with all other type 4 parts
and with the aus dollar at just over 70 cents USA it nearly doubles everything .
nevil naismith (produb in melbourne)does offset ground cranks using modified golf rods .
i bought crank(78mm)and rods from the type 4 store and everything else from EMW
my heads i got done in melbourne aus (44 x 38mm)
i'm in at over $5000 just for most parts (still need a few little things,oil pump,cam gear ect)
luckily i already have a type 4 in my van (2056cc) so i have exhaust (equal length home made)
sharpbuilt upright kit , 44idf carbs and manifolds,,, 200mm conversion flywheel & kennedy clutch and pressure plate ..
otherwise i would be up for another $3000+
so in australia type 4's are very expensive to build

MegaManx
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Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:06 am

Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by MegaManx » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:28 pm

The price is probably one of the only downsides to building a T4, that said, in the long run it may be cheaper that a maxed T1. But the AUS dollar doesn’t help any (I think I’ll hold off for a little while and work on other aspects of my build until it goes up or stabilises). With the exhaust I was just looking for people’s opinions/reviews on them and whether or not there are similar alternatives (homemade, A1, etc.), same for cams, rockers, etc. The other thing that I didn’t mention was heads, and I know it is an ‘interesting’ subject in the t4 community, Is it better for the ‘smaller’ capacity motors/ heads to go aftermarket (48/44) or DIY or get someone to do them, because it seems like everyone has a contradictory opinion especially in AUS (I’m leaning towards aftermarket, just so I know that it is right).

damo99
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Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:31 am
Location: melbourne australia

Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by damo99 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:34 pm

the exhaust i built for my type 4 is a copy of a well known type 4 performance exhaust (from photo's)
being careful to try and get as close to equal length as possible(can't remember what i copied).
i seems to work ok as i am getting 77hp at the wheels on the dyno with a 2056cc with h beam rods
very mild torque hydraulic cam and webers and stock 2 ltre heads .
i was going to buy a tangarine exhaust but by the time it got here it would have cost over $2000 .
i was also looking at the vintage speed exhausts but havn't seen or heard if they are good performance exhausts..
heads for my new motor was a compromise as any decent heads from the USA where going to be very expensive
so i asked around in melbourne who has done type 4 heads before and who was recommended.
and then had the recommended shop build me a set .
hope they work ok

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Fiatdude
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Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by Fiatdude » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:25 pm

a 2165 with a draw thru turbo will beat the HP numbers very easy -- that is what I had in the Fiat in the picture over there<<<<< -- -- and be a lot cheaper -- it had a 2 barrel holley 500 cfm and a t3/t4 hybrid turbo on it -- very good heads and the vehicle was extremely nice to drive around everywhere and performed nice on demand -- and your buggy will be about the same weight as the Fiat

Here are some build threads that are going on with buggies right now

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... highlight=

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... highlight=

damo99
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:31 am
Location: melbourne australia

Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by damo99 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:27 pm

Fiatdude wrote:a 2165 with a draw thru turbo will beat the HP numbers very easy -- that is what I had in the Fiat in the picture over there<<<<< -- -- and be a lot cheaper -- it had a 2 barrel holley 500 cfm and a t3/t4 hybrid turbo on it -- very good heads and the vehicle was extremely nice to drive around everywhere and performed nice on demand -- and your buggy will be about the same weight as the Fiat
fiatdude , nearly every post on the type4rum you put up has nothing to do with type 4's
but to say to get a 2165 turbo type 1 like you have
the questions asked are about type 4's not type 1;s

MegaManx
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Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by MegaManx » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:31 am

Fiatdude wrote:a 2165 with a draw thru turbo will beat the HP numbers very easy -- that is what I had in the Fiat in the picture over there<<<<< -- -- and be a lot cheaper -- it had a 2 barrel holley 500 cfm and a t3/t4 hybrid turbo on it -- very good heads and the vehicle was extremely nice to drive around everywhere and performed nice on demand -- and your buggy will be about the same weight as the Fiat.

Love the photo Fiatdude! But I'm kinda on the T4 path, and for what I want to do (very little drag racing, more slaloms, ect.) I’m kind of after a power plant with a more linier and predictable power delivery rather than outright HP. However if I build this T4 and find it isn’t quite powerful enough (not likely) I was thinking of going supercharged with a eton m26 or something along those lines, just to be different.

wreck
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by wreck » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:30 am

Hi , where in Queensland are you? John Alder at Volksengineering may be a person to speak to, he builds Formula Vees(one of his cars is the state champion) and also knows type 4's, he also does his own exhausts , not cheap but very good .
He built a 1640 with stock rods ,crank, valves , a single 40 DCN weber(stuff he had under the bench) . made just over 110 RWHP with a loose fan belt on pump fuel.
He can also help you with the suspension set up . you have to be patient because his Formula Vee's come first .

I would look at a big bore(103 etc) on a 66mm (stock 1800) crank , you can save on the crank because the standard crank is fine .

cheers Derek
No matter where you go , there you are !

damo99
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:31 am
Location: melbourne australia

Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by damo99 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:37 am

wreck wrote:Hi , where in Queensland are you? John Alder at Volksengineering may be a person to speak to, he builds Formula Vees(one of his cars is the state champion) and also knows type 4's, he also does his own exhausts , not cheap but very good .
He built a 1640 with stock rods ,crank, valves , a single 40 DCN weber(stuff he had under the bench) . made just over 110 RWHP with a loose fan belt on pump fuel.
He can also help you with the suspension set up . you have to be patient because his Formula Vee's come first .

I would look at a big bore(103 etc) on a 66mm (stock 1800) crank , you can save on the crank because the standard crank is fine .

cheers Derek
john alders brother or cousin runs that splitwindow bus that runs 10's (scott alder)with the porsche
6cyl turbo
there is also wayne penrose who also drag races and builds type 4's (in sydney)
but i found it is still cheaper to buy parts from the USA even with our dollar at the moment .
but if buying from USA try and get everything in 1 or 2 goes as it saves on shipping

MegaManx
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:06 am

Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by MegaManx » Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:44 am

wreck wrote:Hi , where in Queensland are you? John Alder at Volksengineering may be a person to speak to, he builds Formula Vees(one of his cars is the state champion) and also knows type 4's, he also does his own exhausts , not cheap but very good .
He built a 1640 with stock rods ,crank, valves , a single 40 DCN weber(stuff he had under the bench) . made just over 110 RWHP with a loose fan belt on pump fuel.
He can also help you with the suspension set up . you have to be patient because his Formula Vee's come first .

I would look at a big bore(103 etc) on a 66mm (stock 1800) crank , you can save on the crank because the standard crank is fine.

hey wreck I'm in the Toowoomba area. I'll look into Volksengineering, but damo99 is right about pricing, it may be cheaper (and less hassle) to get a new set of heads from the USA (I do try to support local but some times......)

the motor that I have has seen a lot of work over the years, and even though I haven't split the case yet, judging by the pistons and cylinders, its going to need a really proper rebuild, thus I think ill just replace and go the 78 crank, so that I know everything is fresh and good to go once I start making more power and putting parts under more load.

wreck
Posts: 150
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:07 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by wreck » Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:18 am

Lachlan , John will be at the Warwick drags 3/4 October. , he drives a silver /blue bay twin cab that you need a step ladder to get into ! he likes to chat about a/c vws :D . if you want to talk to him before you can get him on 0408 199 639 .(work hours)

I've just about got all the parts for a 103 x78 , having problems getting the rods I want (2lt journals 5.325) , if you go 78mm go type 1 journals , rods are cheaper and more sources. Its going in a 69 ghia . using a 091 (6rib) with a T1 nose and zf lsd. all the box parts turned up today . Weddle were great to deal with .
No matter where you go , there you are !

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Fiatdude
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Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by Fiatdude » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:18 am

damo99 wrote:
Fiatdude wrote:a 2165 with a draw thru turbo will beat the HP numbers very easy -- that is what I had in the Fiat in the picture over there<<<<< -- -- and be a lot cheaper -- it had a 2 barrel holley 500 cfm and a t3/t4 hybrid turbo on it -- very good heads and the vehicle was extremely nice to drive around everywhere and performed nice on demand -- and your buggy will be about the same weight as the Fiat
fiatdude , nearly every post on the type4rum you put up has nothing to do with type 4's
but to say to get a 2165 turbo type 1 like you have
the questions asked are about type 4's not type 1;s
I know you guys love your type fours, but damn the parts are getting harder to find and a lot more expensive, as you yourself have said. Other than FAT, I don't know of any other place doing work on them here in SoCAL -- I actually had a T4 in the Fiat until some guy really wanted it, and I sold it to him. With the money, I got my Fiat painted and built the T1 and turbo and dropped a full second in the eighth and started smoking Z06's at the autocrosses -- I have a T4 center bearing in my 2989, I could of bought 5 sets of T1 bearings for what it costs to replace that one when I did the last freshen up....

I just think that a mild 2165 turbo'd will out perform and out live a NA T4 at the same or higher power levels and is a more cost effective solution..... And if you are starting with nothing the investment will be less.... just my humble opinion and was expressing it --

I'm always attracted to spirited projects and that is why I clicked onto this thread/forum (I actually just read the title, was interested, and didn't even notice it was the 4um, sorry about that) -- BUT I figure if I can help someone from having to keep from reinventing the wheel or pushing a boulder up a hill, I'll chime in and make a suggestion... they aren't necessarily taken or appreciated but I did my part on putting the spotlight on the goal from another side of the box.... LOVE YOU GUYS,,, REALLY





(((AND actually if I was building a buggy right now it would probably be powered by a ECOTEC or if it was a Baja, it would have a V6 Honda, and if I blow up my turbo'd 2989 type 1, my Ghia is gonna get an Acura TL V6 engine, which I'll turbo... just saying....)))

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... id=1819008

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Fiatdude
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Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by Fiatdude » Sun Aug 30, 2015 1:01 pm

thinking of you Mega ---- a T4 for sale

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/top ... cseen.html

And this guy is one of the top engine builders in Europe

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Clatter
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Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by Clatter » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:17 pm

I am SO sick of my type 1!
Hate it!
Hate it!
Hate it!
:evil: :evil: :evil:

The cases are made of DRIED TOOTHPASTE!
If you can even find a good one anymore... :roll:
When was the last time you found a good german Type 1 case???
Brazil quality or China quality - take your pick (and blueprint _everything_)
I could rant for hours on all the machining flaws in Type 1 cases now..

They pull case savers, the mains pound out, the backs crack!

T1 cranks flex, even with counterweights, not to mention how CRAPPY the China cranks are right out of the box!

Whee! let's do some Hoover HVX mods! maybe that will make it live?

The flywheels require a circus to get them to hold, but still go on and off,
The valve springs try and rip the rocker studs out of the heads, causing leaks.
China crap head studs stretch like taffy.

I could go on and on and on.
Type fours go together and stay together for miles and miles.

With a type 1, you run it, and then, if you are lucky, you take it right back apart.
Otherwise, it takes itself apart instantly.

I have a type 1 sitting here, all back together _again_ ready to go in.
Boy, is it pretty!
Especially after being built and re-built SO many times!
But,
I think I'll leave it here on it's little display stand.
Oh yes, it makes power - a ton of power.
But then it has to come right back apart.

Anybody who says otherwise is lying.

All these type 1 hot-rod motor stories start with "when i get this thing back together..."

Must....Not.....Rant.....
Find my happy place..... Right here next to my (running/together) type 4!

/rant
"Oh, You don't need to do all that... The valve seats are just going to fall out of it anyway!"
- Doug Ellsworth

Beginners' how-to Type 4 build thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853

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craigvwdude
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: Way up in northern California!

Re: street / track/ hill climb/ weekender combination

Post by craigvwdude » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:26 pm

now that's funny! True, but funny! lol

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