2365 Porsche Type IV Edit now 2.599cc edit again now 2650cc

[Glasser]

Hi All. I picked up a 2365cc Porsche engine. It has some issues so will have to correct a few things before it all goes back together. The engine was originally built to Autocross. Previous owner has all the parts here to put it back together. Some info about the engine. Cam is a Scat C45. Compression ratio, no clue (Engine is all in pieces). 103mm pistons, 44 IDF Webbers. Porsche heads look to be ported. 36mm exhaust 42mm intake (stock???). A1 one exhaust and a DTM shroud set up. Need to buy a Distributor still. Stock crank.
Engine history.... Engine was bought from a guy in Vancouver. Friend #1 put the engine in his Porsche. He then sold the engine to another friend of mine. Friend #2 tore it down because he tightened the drain plate too much and broke the block(Type IV syndrome). This was repaired and they put it back together. They were going to race it (Drag Beetle) but the engine all of the sudden created a huge vibration and dumped oil all over the place. He immediately shut it down. They pulled it apart again and long story short sold the drag car but kept the engine. Then I can along and scooped it. Looks like the thrust plate was not installed between the crank and flywheel which is where the bad vibration came from, The crank and flywheel came loose and are toast.
Heads look in good shape. Pistons condition not sure, I see the start of some skirt rubbing.

So this is what I have to work with. Money is tight so I'm going to go with what I have here (I have read the 103 mm with stock stroke isn't the way to go but it's what I have.)
Does anyone have a clue what I might expect for HP out of this combo? Any improvements? Again i'm stuck with the 103mm as If I don't use it I have nothing. No heads, no block and this will be the end of it as I don't have the funds to start all over from scratch.
I have very limited knowledge of type IV's. I am mechanically inclined and I did built my current motor myself. It's a 1776 cc with a welded counter balenced crank in a Aluminium bubble top block. 110 cam, Empi big bore heads, 009 distributor with Dual 40-44 solex carbs. It does OK but It's not enough , I'm looking for more.

The Porsche will be going into this car. I build this car 100% myself.

[Glasser]

So I remember doing this before ccing the heads etc. But can't remember how you get a base compression? Being as this motor was already built I'll probably just go with what it has but would be nice to know what it is. Do you buy different pistons for a compression base, or is it all done with deck heights etc?

This is what I have...







This is the worst piston, the rest are hardly scuffed at all.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

Hi Glasser

For a base CR go to CB Performance and in Tech Perf they have an engine calculator, I punched in 103mm bore,71mm Stroke, .040" deck and 65cc chambers and it came up with 9.1 to 1 CR. So you need to know your Chamber cc's to get an accurate CR. Some go tighter on the deck, but .040" is safe. The Pistons are from EMW, more than likely the cyl's also, and are a good combo . I run EMW'S 105mm cyl's and are happy with them.

Use some green scotch brite to lightly clean up the scuffing, and they will be fine. Clean up in the direction of the scuffing. What rods does this motor have ? Is that the crank in the Piston picture, then their the stock rods. And for peace of mind I would have them re-sized with ARP Big Block Chevy bolts, or better yet go ahead and get the H beams which are 300g lighter each. But then again I understand limited budget. The rod bolts & resize are a must at least.

The Type IV syndrome I, seen happen a few times, the plate only torques to something like 8 lbs if I remember correctly.

[Piledriver]

Its 9 lb/ft, ideally done with an actual torque wrench...

They only actually break when an idiot nails it with an impact like it was a lug nut, setup isn't really THAT delicate.
9 lbs is basically "one hand" tight with a 3/8" ratchet.

You might bind up the cam a bit at 15 or 20 lbs, which would eventually be almost as bad.

[Glasser]

Awesome thank you for the info!!!
Yes it's a stock crank with stock rods. Crank and flywheel are pooched, Looks like thrust washer wasn't installed in between the two. So I'm looking for a crank anyways, going the extra step with a nice set of rods would be logical.
I've decided the heck with the budget, lets build it right. It's just going to take me WAY longer to get it done. I'm fine with that.
I think the Piston pins are over sized so I'll have to make sure I get rods to match. I believe they are 24mm if my memory serves me correct.

Being told to toss the Scat C45 and run a Web 163/86b instead. I guess now is the time to make changes.

As for the Type 4 syndrome I'm going to add the stand offs under the pick up so this can never happen again.

[Piledriver]

Actually the most sensible mod I have seen mills the case flat and install a billet T1 sump plate.
You can locate the pickup off one of the studs or another bolt.

If you change your own oil it is never a problem though.

I take that sump/pickup plate off once, at the first post-break in oil change on any motor that has been apart.
If it doesn't have anything in it at that point, its very unlikely to pick up anything significant in the future.
Remember--- A T4 has an oil filter, and real crank seals at both ends.

Just don't go berserk with RTV on the jug bases and you shouldn't see anything.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 4&t=148671

[Type 4 Unleashed]

It's not a thrust washer between the crank & thrust bearing, their called flywheel shims, and three are used to take up the clearance (crankshaft end play), using different size shims giving a clearance of between min .003" to. 006" max.

24mm pins are standard Type lV sized pins 1.7 thru 2.0.

Stand offs may or may not work, if over torqued, the trick is not to over torque.

Take your time, if it takes a little longer, the better.

[Glasser]

The plate that was missing goes in between the crank and flywheel. The flywheel bolts are super hard and need this plate to have the bolts lock into. If you don't use it the hardened bolts chip away at the hardened crank and you end up with a mess like I have. http://public.fotki.com/BrentH/buggy-mo ... html#media

[Glasser]

The plate that was missing goes in between the crank and flywheel. The flywheel bolts are super hard and need this plate to have the bolts lock into. If you don't use it the hardened bolts chip away at the hardened crank and you end up with a mess like I have. http://public.fotki.com/BrentH/buggy-mo ... html#media
Edit, I'll fix the link later on the pc. It's not working right from my phone. The crank picture is in there, it's just linking to the wrong one for some reason.

[Type 4 Unleashed]

THE LOCKING PLATE DOES NOT GO BETWEEN THE CRANK & FLYWHEEL.

Your talking about the locking plate for the flywheel bolts, which mount on the out side of the flywheel to protect the flywheel from being chewed up by the serrated flywheel bolts. The serrated flywheel bolt heads never touch the crank. So how can the bolts chip away at the hardened crank ? How do they get past the flywheel ?

Your crank and flywheel were damaged because there were no flywheel shims installed between the flywheel and the crank and the end play was never set.

There is no such thing as a thrust washer on the Type lV. For the 2nd time They are called flywheel shims, you have to use 3 flywheel shims, they come in thicknesses of .009" to .015" and you combine the different thicknesses to come up with an end play of .003" to .006".

Here's a link to one of my builds... Big Type lV Build

Here's a picture of your crank, and I am sure the flywheel has the material missing from the crank, because there were no flywheel shims.

[Glasser]

I totally misunderstood what I was told(not in this forum) Thank you for clarifying this. It makes sense. I believe I did see some end play shims in the bucket of parts I have. Doesn't mean they were used though. I know the flywheel bolts came loose more than likely due to a missing locking plate, what ever it's called.

[Piledriver]

I totally misunderstood what I was told(not in this forum) Thank you for clarifying this. It makes sense. I believe I did see some end play shims in the bucket of parts I have. Doesn't mean they were used though. I know the flywheel bolts came loose more than likely due to a missing locking plate, what ever it's called.

I suspect you had a loose flywheel.
I put them in with locktite and torque to spec or thereabouts.

Its also possible you suffered from the PO putting in a Bus flywheel...
It will work, so will a 228mm, at least on a 914 trans.
A 914 flywheel is thicker at the flange, the bolts are a tiny bit too long for a Bus flywheel.
They can bottom out//"tighten up" without actually clamping the flywheel.

[Glasser]

I suspect you had a loose flywheel.
I put them in with locktite and torque to spec or thereabouts.

Its also possible you suffered from the PO putting in a Bus flywheel...
It will work, so will a 228mm, at least on a 914 trans.
A 914 flywheel is thicker at the flange, the bolts are a tiny bit too long for a Bus flywheel.
They can bottom out//"tighten up" without actually clamping the flywheel.[/quote]

An absolute possibility. The fly wheel looks brand new, to bad its junk now. I see no part numbers or markings on it. I'm not too worried about it as I haven't decided what trans route I'm going yet. I'll match up a fly wheel with what ever trans I go with.

[Piledriver]

I'll match up a fly wheel with what ever trans I go with.

Its more of a matter if making sure the bolts aren't too long for what ever flywheel you use..
That's one of the easier things to fix.

[Glasser]

If I go bus I will get the proper fly wheel, no miss matched parts. All OEM.