T4 rebuild for Vanagon Westfalia

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captain_kapow
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:29 am

T4 rebuild for Vanagon Westfalia

Post by captain_kapow » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:05 pm

This will largely be a collection of photos of my progress, and questions for those who are much more knowledgeable about the Type 4 engine.

The Vanagon Westfalia is arguable the worst platform to build a type 4 engine for, as the vehicle weighs 5500lbs. As such I am focusing more on reliability details than I otherwise would. Balancing, cooling, and oiling are key. HP will take a back seat to reliability in this build, however it won't fully be swept under the rug.

As an added challenge, I am doing the majority of my work in our carpeted spare bedroom in our rental basement suit.


The build started with a collection of parts from a previous build a friend of mine never finished. He had some fancy case work done. Dowels, align bore, drilling for big case through bolts, type 1 lifter sleeves, and porsche oil squirters.

I'll pick up part way through the rebuild, as that is where I am.

Photos to come later.

captain_kapow
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:29 am

Re: T4 rebuild for Vanagon Westfalia

Post by captain_kapow » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:39 pm

captain_kapow wrote:This will largely be a collection of photos of my progress, and questions for those who are much more knowledgeable about the Type 4 engine.

The Vanagon Westfalia is arguable the worst platform to build a type 4 engine for, as the vehicle weighs 5500lbs. As such I am focusing more on reliability details than I otherwise would. Balancing, cooling, and oiling are key. HP will take a back seat to reliability in this build, however it won't fully be swept under the rug.

As an added challenge, I am doing the majority of my work in our carpeted spare bedroom in our rental basement suit.


The build started with a collection of parts from a previous build a friend of mine never finished. He had some fancy case work done. Dowels, align bore, drilling for big case through bolts, type 1 lifter sleeves, and porsche oil squirters.

I'll pick up part way through the rebuild, as that is where I am.

Photos to come later.
A few photos. One of the "engine room", case split on the floor. I'll take some close up photos of the case another time.

The next is of a balancing jig for the connecting rods. I didn't want to spend the 200 dollars for a "real jig", so I took a trip to the university and found most of what I needed to make the jig in the "techno trash" (electronics recycling). A 22mm drill bit and a few old skateboard bearings later and the jig makes repeatable measurements of the heavy and light sides of the rods to 0.1 grams. I think with a little bit more tweaking it will be more repeatable yet and I can get a move on balancing this engine.

The third photo is what I have a question about. I have some rocker arms from a 1.7 liter engine, however they have some surface rust in the bores. Does anybody have any experience removing that kind of rust? Do they need to be rebored oversized? Can I just hone them with a break cylinder hone?



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_thesatanicmechanic
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: T4 rebuild for Vanagon Westfalia

Post by _thesatanicmechanic » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:52 pm

Looks like fun.

Have you read through Clatter's "Cheap Junk Rebuild" thread? Do it twice if you haven't, and again if you have.

I'm intrigued by the case work that your friend had done. That's a lot of modifications that would typically indicate a BIG (>2.5 liter) engine was in mind. Were the soft plugs pulled and the oil passages cleaned? Has the Deck surface been machined or inspected? Has it been checked for saddle spread at the center main bearing?

Literally start at the crankshaft and work your way out. Be prepared to perform at least two case assembly procedures and maybe 3 before you finally glue your case halves together.

Reliability requires a lot of careful and thorough measurement and assembly.

Your next move after case, crank & rod inspection is camshaft choice.

What's the plan?

captain_kapow
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:29 am

Re: T4 rebuild for Vanagon Westfalia

Post by captain_kapow » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:57 pm

IMG_20171130_205009_1000x750.jpg
My understanding of the original build was this:
94mm forged pistons and jugs
Pauter rods
1.7 crank counterweighted
Pauter ratio rockers
Massive duration cam
Straight cut cam gears
Fancy heads with big valves
Type 1 lightweight lifters (which I will use)
Big turbo
Dry sump.
Oil squirters
Etc etc etc etc

The intention originally was to make a 1.8 turbo that revved really high and made lots of power.

The case was worked over by somebody reputable in California, I don't recall his name. All the soft plugs were removed and oil passages cleaned out. I will have to confirm on the deck and saddle spread, however I don't know what saddle spread is.

My plan is different:
2.0 crank, dipped, and polished
2.0 stock rods, rebuilt, static balance
Web 73
SL1 ts 28 lifters (only 56 grams!!)
94mm jugs and pistons (balanced)
Nit picky dynamic Ballance : Fan, pressure plate, flywheel, crank, and equivalent bobweights
AMC heads

I am considering including an accusump so that the engine never has to start without oil pressure

My idea for this engine is that if I pay close attention to balancing ,oiling, bearing tolerances, and valve-train weight, there should be a high likelihood of long term service. Any improvements on those attributes over stock will deal with the common failures of cam wear and dropped valve seats/valves.

I'll post a few photos of the case
IMG_20171130_205009_1000x750.jpg
IMG_20171130_205057_1000x750.jpg
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Last edited by captain_kapow on Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

_thesatanicmechanic
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: T4 rebuild for Vanagon Westfalia

Post by _thesatanicmechanic » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:24 pm

Is a Web 73 compatible with type 1 lifters?

What is the opening pressure on those piston squirters? If stock 911, I think it's over 40 psi. You won't be getting that critical cooling oil supply when you need it; pulling grades. That is unless you drop a gear.

Flat top or dished pistons? What's the CC volume on new AMCs?

Carbs or injection?

What kind of ignition?

captain_kapow
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:29 am

Re: T4 rebuild for Vanagon Westfalia

Post by captain_kapow » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:20 pm

Type 1 lifters could mean a lot of different things.
There are lots of different harnesses and materials available in the type 1 lifter category


From the manufacturer:

"After years of testing I'm now providing the best lifters available. These are only 56gams a piece so they are bye far the lightest as well. You can do cam changes and not worry about mixing up Lifters. They will break in your new cam even after using on another. They are supper tough and supper light. The oil holes and grooves were optimally placed to provide adequate oil to the pushrods and pass to the next lifter. You can use these Lifters with all types of cams Engle, Webb, SLR, Scat, ours and even billets. Put your hard earned money in these and feel confident your not going to loose a cam! "


from aircooled.net, selling Udo Becker tool steel lifters:
"Udo Becker Tool Steel Lifters (Cam Followers), Type 1 Engines, Set of 8 are the finest lifters currently available. Tool Steel and precise machining and grinding eliminate lifter wear! Break in is NOT NEEDED for these! Just start it up and run it! These are compatible with all flat tappet cams EXCEPT SC-1, Steel, or Hard Weld Cam Blanks.
Many hard-core VW guys are well aware of the massive problem we are having with oil composition changes, specifically the removal of Zinc which is an anti-scuff additive. Cam and lifter changes have brought this issue to a head, and flat cams and failed lifters are a HUGE problem, which these lifters solve."

my understanding is that the hardness and surface finish of a lifter are what determine it's compatibility with a camshaft, and the shape of the lifter is less important, as long as the face is flat.
Is there some other reason other than material properties that a type 1 lifter wouldn't work?


I can't speak to the piston squirter pressure, I need to get the part # and look it up.
As for driving a vanagon westy, it hardly makes it up any grade without downshifting. 5500lbs is a lot for a little engine like the type 4.

I will be running stock ignition and injection from 1981.

The pistons are dished. I haven't measured the CCs of the pistons, however they state 10cc on their website.

My target compression ration is somewhere around 8 - 1

_thesatanicmechanic
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: T4 rebuild for Vanagon Westfalia

Post by _thesatanicmechanic » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:24 pm

Cool. 10cc dishes with a 55cc chamber volume will net 7.84: CR at .040 deck height.

Look at the Web 73/86 split duration cam. More duration on the exhaust to help with meager bus system and a the same profile as the 73 on the inlet.

captain_kapow
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:29 am

Re: T4 rebuild for Vanagon Westfalia

Post by captain_kapow » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:06 am

I realise that I have little to add here on this forum. As a newbie to type 4 engines and engine building in general, I am mostly here to ask questions.

I did however have some success that I thought I would share, in hopes that I could help somebody else some day.

Rockers: I had some rockers that a friend gave me years ago when I got my Westy. He told me they were better than the ones I had on the van, however I couldn't really see the benefit and I left them in an ice cream container under my porch.

Now having researched a little more, I decided to pull them out to use them, as they seem to be the preferred style.

When I pulled them out, they looked bad. Rust had got it's grips on them, and I wasn't sure if I could use them. Every one had rust on the outside and through the bores. Unfortunately I'm not very good at taking photos of before and after, but I did take this one photo of a rocker (not the worst one).

Image

I also took this photo of a bore (also not the worst bore)

Image



I figured I had nothing to lose, so I threw one in my ultrasonic cleaner.
Image

The bag had some simple green (purple?) and water in it.


I left the first one in the cleaner for 10 minutes, and it came out looking like this

Image

A quick dunk in oil to prevent corrosion, and a wipedown, and the rocker came out looking great!

Image

I did the same to the others that I had. For the most stubborn ones I used some scotch bright after a quick cleaning in the ultrasonic, then left them in the cleaner for round 2.


They all came out with the original machining cross hatch marks visible.

Image



Hope that helps somebody out there who is trying to clean up a bore, but doesn't want to remove material and make it sloppy.

I recommend used cleaners from the medical and dental industry. They use them to sterilise surgical tools and clean dental picks. I nabbed mine last year on eBay for $180 USD plus shipping, and it is a 20l high quality unit made by Branson under their medical name. Big enough to put a cylinder head into, and fine enough to clean a wedding ring. Great tool! I've used it on literally every old part I have used in this build, and it can handle anything from grease to rust!

Now for the question. The directions for the type 4 store rocker spacers say to remove material until there is no more than 0.006" of lash in a rocker assembly.

Does anyone have a reasonable number to shoot for for lash? 0.003? Is there a practical minimum lash?

I'd like to keep them as tight as is possible and prudent, so that I can keep the valve noise down to a minimum.Image

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