Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
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Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
I have an eternal project, which I've been asked to move over a bit - it's currently taking two parking places, though it has been for the whole time I've had it. The motor is out, and it's been sitting in that spot for 18 months. I removed the front brakes and haven't reinstalled the shoes yet, so they aren't a problem. The rears - I haven't been able to remove those large nuts. I removed the cotter pins (a process in and of itself) and the nuts sneer at my feeble 6' cheater bar...
So, having dug the pickup truck's tires into the driveway trying to tow the bus (in neutral, no motor) I tried using a come-along, and discovered that the rear wheels of the bus were plowing up an impressive heap of gravel each. When I lift either side of the rear, I can rotate the tires a few degrees in either direction, so it's not the brakes - but wouldn't the transmission turn freely without an engine installed, even if it were in gear? (Assuming the trans itself isn't broken, which I desperately hope is the case)
Stray
So, having dug the pickup truck's tires into the driveway trying to tow the bus (in neutral, no motor) I tried using a come-along, and discovered that the rear wheels of the bus were plowing up an impressive heap of gravel each. When I lift either side of the rear, I can rotate the tires a few degrees in either direction, so it's not the brakes - but wouldn't the transmission turn freely without an engine installed, even if it were in gear? (Assuming the trans itself isn't broken, which I desperately hope is the case)
Stray
- Marc
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
Not if it's in two gears...but it's doubtful that you'll be able to avoid major surgery.Stray Catalyst wrote:...wouldn't the transmission turn freely without an engine installed, even if it were in gear?...
Internal interlocks prevent the Reverse rail or the 3/4 rail from moving if the 1/2 rail is not in its Neutral position.
If the endplay is insufficient a gear, its thrust washer, and shaft can become welded together so that gear remains engaged even when its shift fork isn't in that position, but that would leave you stuck in only one gear (so the trans should turn) - there'd have to be another problem as well.
Hockey sticks have been known to bend or jump into the wrong shift rail. Without removing the nosecone one thing you can check is the position of the 1/2 slider, which can be seen through the fill plug. If it's found to be in 1st or 2nd but the shifter doesn't move it, there's a problem at the hockey stick. If the shifter tries to move it but it won't budge, the shift fork is probably broken and binding. It's usually possible to manipulate the slider with a prybar through the hole, but the most you can hope for is a change in the symptom, not a cure.
Could also be a broken differential, with the shrapnel jamming things up inside (that doesn't bode well for the condition of the carrier or the ring & pinion)
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
Ouch. That wasn't the news I was hoping to hear. I guess I'm in the market for another trans, then. What years of transmission will fit into a 64 bus? It'll have an 1835, but I doubt that'll give me enough nut to ditch the RGBs.
Stray
Stray
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
I drove a 1971 bus with a 1745 (76x85.5), mild compression, and it kicked butt with the stock 71 trans. No need for RGBs. And I normally drive a 77 which has had some stock and some beefey motors in it, and the 1745 was very pleasent to drive around town, genuinly surprised me with how hard it kicked with the lowish gear ratios of a 71.
give a man a watch and he'll allways know what time it is. give him two and he can never be sure again.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
- fusername
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
also stray you are up in NH right? I know a guy in CT who has some SA transmissions, I don't know what from exactly, but lemme know if you want me to set you up w/ him.
give a man a watch and he'll allways know what time it is. give him two and he can never be sure again.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
Thanks, fuser. I'll check to make sure it isn't just a hockey stick problem first, but it shifts in the usual H pattern, so I suspect it isnt. My mechanic has seveal splitties in his boneyard, I'll also chech there.
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
By the way, this is a split bus, 1964. Wouldn't a more modern trans expect a mustache bar? The splittie doesn't have a place to mount one of those, unless I feel like fabricating a mount.
Stray
Stray
- Marc
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
A `71 Bus has a 5.375:1 R&P; with the .82 4th it has an overall ratio of 4.408:1fusername wrote:...I drove a 1971 bus with a 1745 (76x85.5), mild compression, and it kicked butt with the stock 71 trans. No need for RGBs...
With 1.26 RGBs, the overall ratio of a swingaxle bus box with 4.125 R&P is 4.262:1 (3% taller than the IRS box)
With 4.375:1 R&P, the overall ratio is 4.520:1 (3% shorter than the IRS box)
As you've surmised, it would be ambitious (to say the least) to convert to IRS, but kits are available which use a Bug or Type III transmission: http://www.bus-boys.com/bbsusp.htmStray Catalyst wrote:...What years of transmission will fit into a 64 bus?...
Any `60-up swingaxle bus trans will bolt in, but only those with the big (46mm) axle nut will have the 1.26 RGBs; most of those will have the 4.125 R&P. You don't want to go "backwards" on the brakes, either, so avoid the earlier ones. There's no significant difference in the internals from ~`64-`67, but the `67 case will already be clearanced for a 130T flywheel and will use the smaller 12V starter bushing.
A `67/`68 Bug trans is almost the same; 4th is .89 and the ring gear is on the opposite side, and the nosecone & hockey stick must be changed to use it in a bus. One could "flip" the ring gear and fit the `64 bus axles & RGBs, it'd be identical around town but the RPM in 4th would be ~9% higher.
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
My mechanic theorizes that it may be the RGBs, and suggests strongly that I find some way to remove those 46mm nuts - I'm beginning to think it's a cutting wheel job, but I'll try to bend my cheater bar a little further and see if that solves the problem - I have to pull those drums to work on the brakes in any case. I know that David58 had a lovely tutorial on how to service the RGBs, which I'll be using once I can get to them.
- fusername
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
didn't even think of it being the RGBs. have you tried a smoke wrench and is that a craftsman breaker bar?
give a man a watch and he'll allways know what time it is. give him two and he can never be sure again.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
- fusername
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
Oh also, even tho they are stuck, don't use that to stop them from spinning when u break the 46 free, as you could damage it further. I use a piece of flat stick w/ one hole in it, slip it over a lug and jam it against the ground. A bit hard to do with frozen hubs, but I bet u Dc figure something out.
Interesting note on the gearing though. My thing about rgb, I've never driven one, but I hear they are kinda odd. Squatting and lifting on gas and coast. Can you not run SA without rgbs, or was that never offered stock
Interesting note on the gearing though. My thing about rgb, I've never driven one, but I hear they are kinda odd. Squatting and lifting on gas and coast. Can you not run SA without rgbs, or was that never offered stock
give a man a watch and he'll allways know what time it is. give him two and he can never be sure again.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
Things are rarely just crazy enough to work, but they're frequently just crazy enough to fail hilariously.
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
The cheater bar is a 2" pipe, six feet in length, placed over the end of a beefy adjustable wrench. What do you mean by SA? Semi-automatic? If so, no interest - I'd rather have a standard trans. Is having the bus on the ground a good enough way to keep the other wheel from spinning when I try to remove the 46mm nut?
- Marc
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
Swingaxle buses all had RGBs. The reverse torque reaction because of the counter-rotating axles causes the rear end to rise on acceleration, which doesn't help traction much when you're in loose stuff.
I've never seen a locked-up RGB, and both of them would have to simultaneously be bad to give the symptom specified...but you've got to get those axle nuts off regardless.
I've never seen a locked-up RGB, and both of them would have to simultaneously be bad to give the symptom specified...but you've got to get those axle nuts off regardless.
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
SA stands for Swing Axle
Alex
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Re: Help! Stuck trans on 64 bus
I'm not likely to have a lot of time to try this until the weekend, but I'll make an assembly to keep the drum from turning, and I'll use the blue wrench. My mechanic suggested putting a clutch plate on the input shaft and seeing if I could spin it by hand, which I'll also try - obviously, if the 1/2 and 3/4 rails are both engaged, it's not going to spin, and if it isn't turning easily I won't force it. I'll also remove the fill plug and look to see what I can see through it.
So, as viewed from the rear (facing forward), the engine turns clockwise, or counterclockwise?
So, as viewed from the rear (facing forward), the engine turns clockwise, or counterclockwise?