Solex (Kadron) vs Weber Venturi Differences

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FJCamper
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Solex (Kadron) vs Weber Venturi Differences

Post by FJCamper »

Image
Above: A Solex (Kadron) venturi being removed. They come out from the bottom of the carb. Weber IDF and IDA's come out through the top.

Venturi Performance Differences

In my Complete Kadron Manual, I made the statement:

"There is no direct comparison in performance gains in Weber vs. Kadron venturi sizes, because of the fundamentally different nature of how the two carbs work."

And then proceeded to describe how the plenum Kads and the single bbl per cylinder Webers were different on that technical level. Something vital I should have added was this info -

Venturis with the same inner diameter do not, I say again do not, perform the same on different types of carbs. For a moment this doesn't make sense, if you're judging solely by the inner diameter of the venturi.

Venturis affect intake velocity. Carb barrel diameter, or more precisely, the throttle body, affects volume. Of course, after a certain point, the venturi does become a restriction. But long before you reach that point, what's controlling your engine performance and drivability is the intake velocity caused by the venturi, which creates the vacuum "signal" (actually a suction) to pull fuel through different passages in the carburetor out of the float bowl and dump it into the intake manifold.

Different carbs have different fuel passages triggered by different vacuum signals. This is why the same venturi size on two different types of carbs does not produce the same performance ... right up to the point the venturi becomes a volume restriction.

So, all variables taken into account, the Kad (based on different vacuum signal) gets more power from a given venturi size than a Weber.

FJC
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ps2375
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Re: Solex (Kadron) vs Weber Venturi Differences

Post by ps2375 »

So, are you saying that Kads make more power than the Webers with the same size venturis? I am totally unfamiliar with Kads and how they are different than the Webers. Can you explain more? Aren't the Kads a single throat carb as compared to an IDA/IDF that is an dual throat carb? Not sure how you could compare them or are you comparing them to a diff model Weber carb?
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FJCamper
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Re: Solex (Kadron) vs Weber Venturi Differences

Post by FJCamper »

Hi ps2375,

Here's a direct Solex to Weber VW race. The Kad Bug uses 32mm venturis, the Weber Bug (presumably) at least the stock 36mm that come with the Weber 44 IDF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQsocqRsovg

My experience is that in a Solex, a venturi nets you about the same performance as the next size or two up in a Weber given that the throttle plate is the same size (40mm or 44mm). Sometimes, as this video shows, the Weber is matched for performance even with a larger throttle plate.

For instance, a 28mm Solex venturi is comparable to a 32mm Weber for overall performance. A 34mm Solex vent produces about the same performance as 36mm in a Weber. We use both here at RetroRacing and this is experience, not speculation.

The Weber will eventually win on all out top end once the venturi sizes become restrictive.

All this is due to the difference in the Solexes vs the Weber's vacuum signals and fuel passages. The Solex is simplistic, and delivers the fuel in the right quantity early. The Solex does lack the sophistication of the Weber's emulsion tube and mixture suffers at top end, but by then a drag race is over.

In road racing, on all but big round or long straight tracks (Daytona and Bonneville) both the Solexes and Weber's spend more time at midrange (up and down throttle) than flat out.

FJC
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ps2375
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Re: Solex (Kadron) vs Weber Venturi Differences

Post by ps2375 »

That is very interesting info. I don't doubt you or your experience.
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63busguy
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Re: Solex (Kadron) vs Weber Venturi Differences

Post by 63busguy »

Wow it doesnt seem like it was that long ago! Im the guy with the 1915 running against Miguel. Not sure what his specs were as he was pretty secretive with it and wouldnt let me check it out when he later pulled it out due to oil pressure issues. All he would say was it had a Norris 330 cam built back in the day.

Here are the specs of my $500 sweep the floor build. Originally the engine was built for my bus with VW 041 heads, 8.4:1 compression and 1.25 rockers. While working at the shop I was able to get some AA heads at cost and swapped out the cracked 041s. After the swap it went down a point in compression with 60cc chambers vs the 52cc in the 041s. The 55cc port made vs the 60cc port in the 041s and the change to 1.1 rockers also affected the hp im sure.

Better cam/compression and proper deck height would have make this engine much more efficient not to mention faster, but at the time I didnt have any additional cash to flycut the heads or get what I needed to tighten the deck height.

69 VW crank
94 Mahle
5.4 rods
Engle 100 cam 1:1 rockers .070 deck height
7.5:1
AA heads with as cast 55 cc ports
44 IDF with 34 vents
1 1/2 merged header.
4.12 trans w/ 15 year old 165s

R/T: .044
60': 2.122
330: 6.320
1/8: 9.901
MPH: 68.35
Tire pressure: 25

R/T: .039
60': 2.038
330: 6.202
1/8: 9.792
MPH: 68.42
Tire pressure: 20

R/T: .124
60': 2.029
330: 6.199
1/8: 9.787
MPH: 68.11
Tire pressure: 17


I now have 60K miles on it since the head swap in 2013 and it still feels strong but will be coming out soon for a 74mm crank, C45 cam w/9.5:1 compression, 1 5/8 header, a fly cut to get the chambers down to size and the 36mm vents going back into the 44IDFs. Im tempted to just do the cam and compression change to see how much a difference it would make.

Miguel was a cool dude, miss working with him and seeing his enthusiasm racing his bug way back when before he became "Jake". Hope he gets his wish and is able to become a pro driver one day, his dedication and perseverance should take him far.
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FJCamper
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Re: Solex (Kadron) vs Weber Venturi Differences

Post by FJCamper »

Hi 63BusGuy!

I am impressed you ran 34mm vents, which given your engine specs, was the right thing to do.

The point of my post was carburation, and theoretically a Weber 44 on 34mm vents should beat 40mm Kads on 32mm vents.

That's if all else is equal, of course, and it never really is. But, in that you got two runs off to reduce the "lucky run" possibility, I'd look at your results as more of a tie.

FJC
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