1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
- rrb6699
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:49 pm
1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
Drove 60 miles to destination this morning with no issues. Driving back was fine till I pulled over for refreshments. Started up drove half mile, got up to 60mph and it cuts off, I didn't see Gen. Light but signal was blinking since I thought I had to pull over. I was in gear and all the sudden it kicked in with fuel or power and I drove remaining 25mi home.
It was about 90deg out temp-wise.
This happened 3 times over the last 6 months. Each time it seems it started after it sat. I thought I was outta fuel last time but 2 gallon fuel can overflowed, so, that time I assume it started after sitting.
This time it just kicked in coasting in gear. I can list what I think are causes, but, maybe not? Fuel tank debris, fuel pump, coil, short somewhere, are things that I can think of.
Is anyone familiar with this issue? I'd like to take semi-long trips in this but don't want to get stuck without knowing what to do or without backup parts.
Update, it's electrical or part of the problem is. Maybe the starter. Just tried to start it and gen light is dim. Acts like no power. If I turn headlight on or use signals they barely click. The battery terminals were cleaned about 10 days ago and I put terminal protectant on them but the positive term has corrosion again already.
Short or failure causing a short - like the starter or coil?
Thanks,
It was about 90deg out temp-wise.
This happened 3 times over the last 6 months. Each time it seems it started after it sat. I thought I was outta fuel last time but 2 gallon fuel can overflowed, so, that time I assume it started after sitting.
This time it just kicked in coasting in gear. I can list what I think are causes, but, maybe not? Fuel tank debris, fuel pump, coil, short somewhere, are things that I can think of.
Is anyone familiar with this issue? I'd like to take semi-long trips in this but don't want to get stuck without knowing what to do or without backup parts.
Update, it's electrical or part of the problem is. Maybe the starter. Just tried to start it and gen light is dim. Acts like no power. If I turn headlight on or use signals they barely click. The battery terminals were cleaned about 10 days ago and I put terminal protectant on them but the positive term has corrosion again already.
Short or failure causing a short - like the starter or coil?
Thanks,
Last edited by rrb6699 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
RR
1972 Restoration Project.
1972 Restoration Project.
- Marc
- Moderator
- Posts: 23741
- Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 12:01 am
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
A likely cause is crud in the bottom of the tank that's accreting around the pickup screen under high fuel demand and restricting fuel flow. Symptoms can be spurious, since once the engine conks out and fuel flow stops the detritus tends to fall off by itself due to gravity. It's often mistaken for a temperature-related problem, since by the time fuel starts flowing again things will have cooled down some too.
Or, there may be a problem with your fuel tank venting system. Try driving with the cap loose and see if it still happens.
Or, there may be a problem with your fuel tank venting system. Try driving with the cap loose and see if it still happens.
Marc wrote: FI cars all had filters between the tank and electric pump (primarily to protect the pump from trash) but carb'ed Standards never did. Early Supers used a pickup screen in the tank (similar in concept to what carb'ed Standards used, although uniquely different parts). In mid`73 (after VIN 1332802560) Supers deleted the in-tank strainer in favor of an inline filter between tank and chassis pipe...that was of course updated to a larger filter for `75 when FI was adopted.
From the factory the only filters in the system on carb'ed Standards were the bronze-mesh pickup screen in the tank and a finer one inside the fuel pump. The in-tank screen is known to plug up with rust flakes and crud, typically under high demand conditions (such as a long freeway run). Once the engine conks there's no more draw and gravity allows the junk to fall off the screen, so just sitting on the side of the road for a while "heals" the condition temporarily - hopefully well enough that you can finish your trip and clean/replace the screen when you get home.
If you live where it gets below freezing in the winter and have any moisture in your tank, it's quite likely that some cold morning there'll be ice crystals plugging up the screen, and they don't fall away readily. If there's no heated garage to push the car into, you may find yourself under the car with a hairdryer.
Removing the screen and running an inline filter lets crud and water get out of the tank - that's good, but when the inline filter finally does plug up it's not going to self-heal and replacement will be necessary. The ideal location is right under the tank, but that's not too handy if you should need to replace it on the side of the road. Neither is the rear chassis-to-engine line, and that location has the added drawback of being near hot parts - the potential for fire if it should leak (or while you're changing it) makes me recommend against putting one there.
In short, you can make a case for or against leaving the stock screen in the tank...but if you choose to remove it and rely solely on an inline filter, be sure you always carry a spare and have a safe way to get under the car to change it.
- rrb6699
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:49 pm
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
Ok, sort of isolated the electrical part of the problem. Tapped on the battery terminals and the voltage regulator. Now it's starting again.
What does the corrosion recurring around the positive battery terminal mean again? Used to know. I cleaned and treated the battery terminals 10 days ago but it's back. Maybe the electrical is just loss of conductivity due to the corrosion?
I hate it when I do two things and it sorta solves a problem then I don't know which one is the issue.
On a brighter note with the Weber 2-barrel carb on the engine I got just at 30mpg for the 120 mile trip.
Is that good for these bugs? If not, what can I do to improve on it?
What does the corrosion recurring around the positive battery terminal mean again? Used to know. I cleaned and treated the battery terminals 10 days ago but it's back. Maybe the electrical is just loss of conductivity due to the corrosion?
I hate it when I do two things and it sorta solves a problem then I don't know which one is the issue.
On a brighter note with the Weber 2-barrel carb on the engine I got just at 30mpg for the 120 mile trip.
Is that good for these bugs? If not, what can I do to improve on it?
RR
1972 Restoration Project.
1972 Restoration Project.
- Marc
- Moderator
- Posts: 23741
- Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 12:01 am
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
Poor battery cable connections would cause a no-crank condition, but don't explain the car conking out while going down the road. It'll run on the generator with NO battery once RPM is above idle. If you have an alternator, don't ever run with the battery out of the circuit - that can damage the alternator.
http://benignblog.com/2013/05/why-batte ... ntion.html
30MPG is respectable for a DP1600. Higher's achievable but a lot of the claims of >32 come from folks running smaller-diameter front tires which throw their speedo/odometer reading off. Maintaining a steady foot on the throttle so no fuel is wasted though accelerator-pump action and keeping the tires properly inflated will help and cost nothing. Don't go by the max pressure on the sidewalls, that's too much for these light cars. The factory recommendations were for the original equipment 5.60x15 bias-ply tires; you've probably got something like 165/80-15 radials, and they're pretty good at around the same pressures. IMO the listed front pressures are a little low, chosen to reduce oversteer, so you can fudge them up a bit to reduce rolling resistance without causing premature tread wear...for long trips, something like 22F/30R works for me - maybe even more if the car's heavily loaded.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/man ... 2T1-55.jpg
("111" is the Standard Beetle)
http://benignblog.com/2013/05/why-batte ... ntion.html
30MPG is respectable for a DP1600. Higher's achievable but a lot of the claims of >32 come from folks running smaller-diameter front tires which throw their speedo/odometer reading off. Maintaining a steady foot on the throttle so no fuel is wasted though accelerator-pump action and keeping the tires properly inflated will help and cost nothing. Don't go by the max pressure on the sidewalls, that's too much for these light cars. The factory recommendations were for the original equipment 5.60x15 bias-ply tires; you've probably got something like 165/80-15 radials, and they're pretty good at around the same pressures. IMO the listed front pressures are a little low, chosen to reduce oversteer, so you can fudge them up a bit to reduce rolling resistance without causing premature tread wear...for long trips, something like 22F/30R works for me - maybe even more if the car's heavily loaded.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/man ... 2T1-55.jpg
("111" is the Standard Beetle)
- rrb6699
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:49 pm
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
Thanks. My 111 has a generator. If the conductivity was progressively gettin worse it could happen, but, I was running 50-60 when it cut out. Like I mention, there was nothing. I did have it in gear and was goin to slow down to stop before it kicked back in.
I think I'm gonna get a voltage regulator and new battery plus replace the battery connectors.
At least those seem suspect right now.
Could the corrosion on the positive terminal be sleeping from the post? What else causes this besides overcharging?
I will put a charge meter to see what is happening while engine is running.
Will keep you posted.
I think I'm gonna get a voltage regulator and new battery plus replace the battery connectors.
At least those seem suspect right now.
Could the corrosion on the positive terminal be sleeping from the post? What else causes this besides overcharging?
I will put a charge meter to see what is happening while engine is running.
Will keep you posted.
RR
1972 Restoration Project.
1972 Restoration Project.
- Marc
- Moderator
- Posts: 23741
- Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 12:01 am
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
That blog link I posted covers the subject well.rrb6699 wrote:...Could the corrosion on the positive terminal be sleeping from the post? What else causes this besides overcharging?
After you've got the terminals clean, smup some Vaseline over them to prevent exposure to air and/or put on a pair of those red/green "corrosion preventer" treated felt rings.
OEM regulator was electro-mechanical; the current production ones, sold under the same 30 019 part number, are potted electronic devices.
One of the prime causes of premature regulator failure is arcing/sparking where the brushes contact the commutator. They should stand proud above their holders, by the time they're worn enough to ride flush the spring tension's not sufficient to ensure good contact and should be replaced. Also, with the engine running carefully press lightly on the brushes (watch out for the belt when you're groping for the bottom one) and see if you can feel any pulsating movement, indicative of an out-of-round commutator.
- rrb6699
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:49 pm
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
just to update. problem never reappeared again once I cleaned battery terminals and coated.
thanks all!
thanks all!
RR
1972 Restoration Project.
1972 Restoration Project.
-
- Posts: 17731
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:17 pm
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
Marc, Your post on the corrosion of the battery was very interesting to say the least. Also, so was the part about tired components in a generator is something people aften forget about. Bushings and bearings do wear with use and age as well as the case or components inside could, potentially, get tired. The regulator problem has always been a problem with all cars that use them.
A great thing to bring up every once-in-a-while.
Tire pressure. The printed tire pressure on the tire is for the tire itself, not for the car using it. The car manufactures, based on what the tires at the time the car was built, gave "best ride" recommendations that they posted in the literature and on the door jams. As Marc said, this is many years later and things have changed do to different requirements of current cars. Unless you are dealing with some company like Coker who deals with retro tires you are going to get something based on today's requirements.
As a side note, I change the tire pressure on my cars when use dictates it. On my almost a truck the rear tire's pressure is raised or lowered based on what loads it is carrying or if it is towing or not. It may take a while but watch the wear patterns on the tread area of the tire... it will tell you a lot if you know what you are looking for. Look for even wear patterns across the face to determine tire pressure. Wear to the outside is low pressure, wear to the center is too much pressure and wear to one side or the other usually means alignment time. Also remember this is looking at both front and rear tires not just the front tires.
A great thing to bring up every once-in-a-while.
Tire pressure. The printed tire pressure on the tire is for the tire itself, not for the car using it. The car manufactures, based on what the tires at the time the car was built, gave "best ride" recommendations that they posted in the literature and on the door jams. As Marc said, this is many years later and things have changed do to different requirements of current cars. Unless you are dealing with some company like Coker who deals with retro tires you are going to get something based on today's requirements.
As a side note, I change the tire pressure on my cars when use dictates it. On my almost a truck the rear tire's pressure is raised or lowered based on what loads it is carrying or if it is towing or not. It may take a while but watch the wear patterns on the tread area of the tire... it will tell you a lot if you know what you are looking for. Look for even wear patterns across the face to determine tire pressure. Wear to the outside is low pressure, wear to the center is too much pressure and wear to one side or the other usually means alignment time. Also remember this is looking at both front and rear tires not just the front tires.
- rrb6699
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:49 pm
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
my beetle is a standard 72, 1800-ish pounds. the first set of tires lasted 100k miles. Bugs are very easy on tires due to their weight. in fact the sidewall dry rotted and gave out when making a turn. the tread was still good.
ive never aligned it but I probably would have to do it myself if I had to, as shops probably have no experience aligning these.
what do you think?
ive never aligned it but I probably would have to do it myself if I had to, as shops probably have no experience aligning these.
what do you think?
RR
1972 Restoration Project.
1972 Restoration Project.
-
- Posts: 1925
- Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:20 am
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
Alignment is easy to do at home.
watch those old tires, as the tread gets hard, and gives you less and less traction.
You find it out the hard way, like I did, under panic braking......
watch those old tires, as the tread gets hard, and gives you less and less traction.
You find it out the hard way, like I did, under panic braking......
- rrb6699
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:49 pm
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
I got a new set of tires just recently. Falkens. $80 for the whole set. found a tire shop just opening and tryin to get customers. it worked for me.
RR
1972 Restoration Project.
1972 Restoration Project.
- FJCamper
- Moderator
- Posts: 2901
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:19 pm
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
Hi rrb6699,
We actually road race our Ghia in Historic Sportscar Racing (HSR) on a set of H-rated 60-series Falken 185-15's and are very happy with them.
Some series require a street tire as opposed to pure racing rubber.
FJC
We actually road race our Ghia in Historic Sportscar Racing (HSR) on a set of H-rated 60-series Falken 185-15's and are very happy with them.
Some series require a street tire as opposed to pure racing rubber.
FJC
- rrb6699
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:49 pm
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
thanks for that info. Yea I have 185s on the front and 195s in the rear.
RR
1972 Restoration Project.
1972 Restoration Project.
- Marc
- Moderator
- Posts: 23741
- Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 12:01 am
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
What width rims?rrb6699 wrote:thanks for that info. Yea I have 185s on the front and 195s in the rear.
- rrb6699
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:49 pm
Re: 1972 Beetle Cut off while driving.
4.5s. I just let the tire shop choose the size. not showing any signs of wear.
RR
1972 Restoration Project.
1972 Restoration Project.