CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

The VW Beetle. Everything about bugs!

Moderator: Marc

User avatar
SCOTTRODS
Posts: 466
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:15 am
Location: Garland, TX

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by SCOTTRODS » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:51 pm

I just can't see putting a Northern Tools Pump in my car to depend on... I use pumps from other makers and often have to replace 3 week old Northern tool pumps of one kind or another in my daily job... Don't buy junk to put in your engine unless you're planning on replacing P&C often, and possibly cranks and cams and bearings a lot... If you are going to build for A Dry Sump... Buy The good stuff... You will find it pays you back by doing the job it was DESIGNED for.
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

Some pics of My Powder Coating work
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/terrellster/
My Facebook Page for Powder Coating
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001788886297

User avatar
RHough
Posts: 264
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 12:52 pm

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by RHough » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:41 pm

SCOTTRODS wrote:I just can't see putting a Northern Tools Pump in my car to depend on... I use pumps from other makers and often have to replace 3 week old Northern tool pumps of one kind or another in my daily job... Don't buy junk to put in your engine unless you're planning on replacing P&C often, and possibly cranks and cams and bearings a lot... If you are going to build for A Dry Sump... Buy The good stuff... You will find it pays you back by doing the job it was DESIGNED for.
All those cheap fluid change pump use a generic motor and pump from China. I wasn't going to use it for something mission critical, just for pumping drain back oil from the sump to the tank. I found a box full of them a Princess Auto today for $29.95 CAD ... The whole kit was on sale at KMS for $32.95 CAD. No reason to spend big $$$ for a simple pump that only gets used for 30-45 seconds after a three day drain back.

I agree on things where failure means a tow home or big expense.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21687
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Piledriver » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:19 pm

The swagelok parts are rated for hydraulic system pressures... Not what you need for PCV.

I use the valves from US Plastics for PCV gas steering. For $2, they work great.
Unfortunately they don't make anything bigger than 3/8".

As i have mentioned, I use a vacuum break on the feed to the 3/4 head and maintain a slight case vacuum.
The vacuum break was ~$8 on ebay, seem to have gone up a little, but something similar will work.
You can adjust it for the max vacuum level you want and lock it down.
I bought the 1/4" NPT size and modded it to take a push-on hose on the other end.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Control-Devices ... SwMNxXYlmK
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Matt Mariani
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Matt Mariani » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:11 pm

Hey Guys, I've been reading the CB Performance dry sump threads here and wanted advise. Please see the attached pics of my 2056 Type 4. I'm adding 2 coolers up front in my Porsche 912 R build. My question is:

Should i leave the oil filter/bracket pictured in place ? and run my oil lie from the CB DS pump directly to a oil thermostat then the coolers and back to the tank?

Or should I remove the pictured current bracket / filter and stock oil cooler, loop the current filter and oil cooler passages and use a remote filter?

I was thinking it might be nice to keep the stock oil cooler in place as in cold running conditions the oil thermostat will prevent filtering with a remote filter.

All opinion/ideas are appreciated. -Matt
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Marc
Moderator
Posts: 23714
Joined: Thu May 23, 2002 2:01 am
Contact:

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Marc » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:01 pm

Looks to me as though the first order of business will be to re-engineer the rear mount brackets to make room for the pump's inlet & outlet lines...if that's even possible without modifying the pump itself.

I've never been a proponent of front-mounted coolers (I prefer to duct air to a cooler close to the engine or dry-sump tank rather than pump oil all the way to the front of the car & back). I suspect you'll find that the CB pump isn't really up to the task.

That's my opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it...stick around to see what Piledriver recommends.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21687
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Piledriver » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:43 pm

The mounts look very similar>same as 914 mounts, I modded my "inlet" side mount by simple triangulation and made it a pass-through..
My pump is modded so the scavenge goes out the stock outlet to the oil filter etc, the passage through the pump stages for pressure is plugged. The "full flow" cover acts as an outlet for the pressure stage and clears the pressure side mount, and the inlet line (go as large as possible) passes through the suction side mount.
The pump also has to be massively narrowed for this to fit: There is a ton of extra material that's absolutely not required.
Big belt sander did that well.
The top bolt in the mount was replaced with a socket head cap screw with the head OD beveled at a 45 degree angle for clearance.
The "oil filter mount" block is now the scavenge outlet, that is trivial to make with a small hunk of 1" scrap aluminum.
It is only an outlet here, but can be made with 2 ports... can be used several ways.

Keep the stock cooler and see if you actually need more: The tank and all the plumbing provide significant cooling.
A 911 DS tank is relatively easy to come by and works/fits your car: Go there.
setup.jpg
Heres another shot while mocking it up---but avoid bling aluminum pump covers.
The second port in the top of the "filter mount" adapter could be an inlet, but it actually mounts a 3/8" pipe thread adjustable pressure relief from Swagelok. This dumps back to the tank as well, as you don't want to have to pump bypass oil out of the sump again. The return to sump at the bottom of the stock pressure relief is plugged.
pump-block1.jpg
On the oil pickup: The stock T4 pickup is VERY restrictive due to a pinch point from the fat oring used for the seal to the block. It would be better to bore out for a modded press-fit late T1 pickup to avoid cavitation at high RPM.

The v8 racers have finally figured out they are cavitating even with much smaller pumps, believe it or not.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Matt Mariani
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Matt Mariani » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:51 pm

Marc and Piledriver thank you very much. My 1968 912 "R" build has me committed to using a custom dry sump tank to look the part of the world record breaking 911R [s] of 1967-68. I found this rusty hulk 912 2 miles from my home and have restored the body and already cut the oil fill hole in the passenger side rear quarter..see here: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche- ... eamin.html

So I've done something here that prohibits the use of a 911 DS tank..

I also would prefer front mounted coolers in front of each wheel like the 911 R. I've actually already mounted them. It's not that long a run to the front coolers [small car] so i'm hoping if i do it right i'll be OK.

Piledriver, thank you for the detailed help, my first issue is that I don't quite understand the basics of the CB 'drysump' pump, It's not really a dry sump oil system and I'm more familiar with flat 6s so I'm worried I will do something wrong and grenade this great running 2056 T4. I think if you dumb it way down for me starting with a simple explainion of this pump and how it provides better oiling for our T4 VW motors, I'd understand a bit better.

I a decent fabricator and can mod things for the mount to work, my issue is feeling confident i have the pump, coolers and lines corectly plumbed.

Thanks again, I really appreciate your work and insights. -Matt

User avatar
FJCamper
Moderator
Posts: 2667
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:19 pm
Location: Birmingham AL

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by FJCamper » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:25 am

Image

Image

Hi Matt,

The first win (anywhere) for an RSR was for Brumos Porsche, Feb '73, Daytona 24-Hour. Brumos was my alma mater.

The CB pump system beats a common full flow system because it draws from an external oil tank. You get less foam and better oil cooling.

It does not have the refinement of scavenging the heads. The CB system is as minimal as it gets and can still call itself a dry sump system.

Now, having said all that, we use the CB system on our road racing Superbug (LeMons) and Ghia (Historic Sports Car Racing). In fact, we're scheduled to run our Ghia at Sebing the 01-04 December.

Your body prep is excellent.

FJC

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21687
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Piledriver » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:54 am

Beautiful work.

There are other ways to keep the 3/4 rocker box empty.

Small car? maybe, but its still a >25' run, from the very back of the car to the extreme front and all the way back.

You can have all the oil coolers and lines you want.

But: You don't have to, or really want to... put any oil in them if they are not needed.
More places to leak, and may cause needless oil pressure issues.
Do not go there unless they prove to be actually required.

The CB pump has a 26mm scavenge stage with a 21mm pressure stage.
The pressure stage is good (with an enlarged inlet)..
The scavenge stage is a bit anemic, and needs a little help, particularly via sending pressure relief oil back to the DS tank rather than the sump to be re-scavenged (That was Racer Chris's technique)
These also fit like typical Schadek pumps, which means they are very loose in the case and need oringed so as not to suck air around the pump body etc. (this is worst at idle)

Out of the box, it uses the std case pickup for scavenge, and pushes it out a port on the other side right where you simply can't have it with those motor mounts.
(note the pipe plug in the pics, that's the std scavenge outlet port)

Its pressure stage pushes oil to the T1/T4 "normal" pump outlet port port like stock pump through a couple internal 90 degree bends and small passages. On a T4 this is not really help, and its arguable on a t1---it's made for simplicity... probably a little too much so.

The pics you see are how I modded it for best effect in a type4 in a 914, which not only will fit your 912, but improves flow and makes it far more flexible. Only minor trimming of the fan housing stiffening webbing needs done to clear.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Matt Mariani
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Matt Mariani » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:30 am

FJC and Piledriver thank you for the complement on the '68 912. FJC nice Ghia, the first restoration I did in the early 90s was to my '64 Ghia Cabriolet I traded a girl in Philly my camera for it. It's sea blue with white top and still on the road today.

This motor I picked up [used] in great running condition was removed from a very nice 914 2.0L. It uses a 911 fan with Fat Performance shroud and Crank - Fire igniton. This Bahia Red 914 2.0 ran the fastest hill climb time for a Porsche one year at Hershey Pa [ a Porsche only swap meet] at around 53 seconds. I bought the engine recently as the new owner of this 914 went flat 6 conversion.

Anyway, I'm a bit 'locked into' this oiling layout as i mentioned. Had I not cut the rear quarter I'm not sure I would have bothered now going DS but i have to. There is no room in the rear quarter for coolers imo and hanging near the heat of the engine and trans isn't my first choice. I don't think I'll have a problem figuring out the engine mount issue Piledriver but thanks for the heads up.

To have two oil coolers up front in the 912R may not be necessary. I have already mounted them as mentioned and will take a pic soon to show their size. Inlet/outlet 1/2" dmns: 7" x 1" x 16" roughly..

*I would like a system that filtered always regardless of engine temp [can use the existing filter setup and simply loop after it?] [also could i drain the rocker boxes into this filter loop with a one way valve in the loop?]

**I think an oil thermostat is 100% needed here so that the front mounted coolers are ONLY in use when the oil gets hot.

Note the stock oil cooler is not under the shroud and requires a remote fan. Also the existing oil filter bracket ran lines to a frunk mounted cooler in the 914. It ran very well for many years with this set up. Wish i did not have to change it.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21687
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Piledriver » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:54 pm

Ah, I was thinking 912E setup (stock T4 cooling) from the beginning of the thread.

Due to the excess airflow of a 911 fan setup, you might consider boxing the stock cooler and feeding it with a duct off the fan housing ala Sharpbuilts 911 housing.

The plumbing and the tank will provide a lot of cooling so you may simply get by with using a modded remote oil cooler adapter as a loop , requires only drilling a hole in the adapter to make it a loop and plugging it, I posted a how-to awhile back, can be used as the oil pressure inlet as well.
I don't think you are going to need a huge/complex oil cooler setup.

The 911 DS tank would have provided a very short feed to the pressure stage, but just keep it as short and fat as possible with whatever tank you run.

As to the oil plumbing, the scavenge out can easily be routed to a remote filter, which will also accept your thermostat sandwich adapter. There is no need or reason to put the filter in the oil cooler loop---FJCamper refers to that setup as "faux flow" oil filtration.

I would personally put the oil filter/cooler etc in the pressure circuit, with a coarse screened oberg or similar at most in the scavenge circuit as you want to minimise the backpressure due to the limited scavenge pump size.

The "trick" for scavenging 3/4 rocker box is simply plug the rocker box vent, or if you are running any form of case vacuum, put the vacuum break on it, either the exhaust blowby from the guides or the purge air from the vacuum break will prevent the "full rocker box" issue.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Matt Mariani
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:15 pm

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Matt Mariani » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:18 pm

Piledriver, Is this what you think i should try?

Try the stock oil cooler ducted by the 911 fan.

Remove the existing Oil Filter and machine a 'block' to scavenge off..But what is the best use of this? Matbe simply loop?

To add Future Remote Oil Cooler/s only if needed, I'd add an oil thermostat and the cooler/s but if not needed..

I'd simply scavenge directly back to my DS tank. From the DS Tank a short big line incorporating a Remote Oil Filter and back to the CB Performace DS Pump.

would this work? and please dumb way down how to keep oil out of the rocker boxes..
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21687
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Piledriver » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:09 pm

I'll draw you a proper diagram when I get home from work early AM.
If you mod the pump as I described. the T4 oil filter "mount" blockoff becomes your scavenge outlet, the std setup puts the oulet in a very bad place for any T4 motor mounts.
The oil passage in the block can easily be drilled to 11mm, and once you hit the new blockoff any size hose you like.

Thought: (probably sacrilege) is fab a bolt in tubular rear subframe ~ala framehorns and kafer brace in a racing T1 and ditch the rear mounts entirely.
I realize the 901 clutch setup would require some dimensional differences.

A T4 weighs a LOT less than a 911 motor and can be supported by a very securely mounted trans.

The stock pressure relief could be modded to return bypass oil to the dry sump tank, although it must either go through the plug at the bottom, or the pulley end angled plug, that one is pretty small.

You will probably be able to get away with a small cooler by the trans with a thermostatic fan.

I have always wanted to do a 911 fan on a WBX or such with the radiator in or on the front of the fan housing, with a duct to dump the hot air out of the engine compartment. Similar idea could work with an oil cooler, would be a good use of the excess air. Thats what Sharp did, but I'm assuming a thermostatic controlled cooler and just making a simple loopback for the std oil cooler location. (made from an external cooler adapter in about 30 seconds)
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21687
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Piledriver » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:25 pm

Matt Mariani wrote:and please dumb way down how to keep oil out of the rocker boxes..
Simpler...?
Just plug the 3/4 side rocker box vent.
If you ever set up case vacuum, put your vacuum break there.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

User avatar
Piledriver
Moderator
Posts: 21687
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am
Location: Van Alstyne, Texas

Re: CB PERFORMANCE DRY SUMP PUMP.

Post by Piledriver » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:36 am

I'm beat and its very late---or early so lets try goesintas and goesoutas...

With UNmodified CB pump: (This actually can work better on a T4 than a T1)
Note this setup has the scavenge outlet in ~the middle of the drivers side motor mount stud.
It will not work/fit with any of the std rear T4 mounts, 411/914/bus or Vanagon.

Scavenge stage sucks on the case oil pickup, through the inner stage, and out a tiny ID fitting on the side of the pump.
That goes through a remote filter and to the DS tank.

Degassed oil flows out the bottom of the tank to the pressure stage inlet, through a (ridiculously small ID) fitting, then goes straight down through the pump to the original pressure outlet port.
On a T4 this feeds into the oil filter and could work well for you with the sandwich thermostat feeding a close-by remote oil cooler and simply installing the largest fittings that sanely fit for the scavenge outlet and pressure stage inle
3/8 NPT fits, you can usually bore it out considerably, SS is stronger than brass and can be bored larger.
On a T1 it goes straight into the engine with no filtration, thus the need for a pre-DS tank filter.

You will have to play with the shaft length for good oil pump drive engagement, the inner gear is keyed, outer is pressed on. This is much easier than it sounds. Leave ~1mm of play, you do not want the oil pump gears and pump cover to become the cam thrust bearing.

Getting an oringed pump into an assembled case can be done, but it requires extensive prep of the ports and one size smaller orings so they don't loop out into the ports as they pass by and get cut off. It's usually done as the case is assembled.

I gotta crash now, back up for work in 5 hours.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

Post Reply