1972 Beetle 1600dp voltage regulator making clicking sounds

[rrb6699]

I really never ran with my windows closed until last week. when I did I heard this clicking noise and determined its coming from the voltage regulator. is this normal or is a problem beginning?

I plan on cleaning all the contacts going to the unit before jumping to conclusions. any ideas?

Also, I have had my headlights cut off at night while driving sometimes. not sure if its related but if I turn brights on they stay lit. sometimes when this happens if I turn bright llghts on/off then they stay on, but, other times not. is this the signal switch, headlight switch or something else?

just wondering what to do for either of these issues.

[Marc]

Headlight problem is most likely caused by the hi/lo beam relay. On a `72 it's plugged into the strip on the fusepanel, looks something like this: https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=htt ... _1.jpg&f=1
Sometimes you can fix these by peeling off the cover and taking some emery cloth to the contacts. Note that there are two types, one that gets its control power internally from the wire coming in from the headlight switch and one that has a separate terminal for it. You can use the former in place of the latter, but not vice-versa (without adding a jumper wire to the extra terminal. My memory's fuzzy on this and I don't have time right now to research which is which, just be aware of the difference if you have to buy one.

Often a clicking regulator indicates that the contact is poor between the commutator and the brushes. Could be that the brushes are worn short enough that the springs don't provide adequate pressure (if they're flush with the holder, or below flush, they're worn out).
The commutator could be out-of-round and/or chucking a bar - with the engine idling observe the brushes to see if they're jumping up & down (usually accompanied by some arcs & sparks). Carefully, so you don't lose any fingers, press lightly on the back of the top brush to see if you can feel it pulsing - it should feel smooth, if not the generator needs rebuilding/replacement.
If the brushes and commutator are OK, it's worth trying a new regulator. They're now a potted solid-state deal rather than electromechanical like the original, but sold under the same 30 019 part number. https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=htt ... or.JPG&f=1

[rrb6699]

hey thanks,

I did hear the signal relay "fluttering" one day last week during a day ride. I just flicked it lightly. it seems to be behaving for now. I'll look at it and see if I can take the cover off.

on the regulator, I'll inspect the wires and contacts first before I assume the generator faulty. I had to replace all the ground wires with new ones lately. I had a non-conductive connection on the coil (connector actually just fell off the tab). I cleaned it with a wire brush and tightened the female plug with plyers. its been fine ever since, but I check it frequently.

even though I have a fairly new main wiring harness, I'm still finding faulty conductivity here and there.

one of my taillight connectors fell apart a couple weeks ago. thought it was a bulb. ill have to extend that connection a couple inches because I barely can get the connection to hold due to wire length almost too short.

so, connections first I guess.

one thing though.... if I do replace the generator, would it be a good idea to go with a high-output generator I see available or convert to alternator and go high output with that ? why do some people convert to alternators?

I plan on adding to electrical demands with a decently higher wattage sound system plus adding a/c system to the car.

I'm also looking for a way to put a heated blower to the car for driving in rain. it doesn't have to be high wattage just enough to heat the air a little to evaporate condensation on the windshield inside.

[sideshow]

...one thing though.... if I do replace the generator, would it be a good idea to go with a high-output generator I see available ...

Deep link on this? Beyond what was last used on Things, am unaware of any generators more impressive than the 38 amp bus ones.

[Marc]

If there is such a thing as a high-output generator I'd be leery of it, it probably wouldn't have adequate heat dissipation capability.

The stock generator puts out 30 amps. There is a stock VW generator rated at 38A which came in Things and some Buses, but I don't recommend it - regulators are hard to come by, and the generator is physically longer so it uses unique sheetmetal and fan hub...but the biggie is the special pulley that's needed for proper belt alignment, they're obsolete and virtually unobtainable.

A standard alternator puts out 50 amps and uses the same sheetmetal, fan hub and pulley as your generator. The wiring modification is trivial (assuming you get an internally-regulated alternator, the externally-regulated ones are far less desirable and are getting rare).

To install an alternator you need a specific pedestal, which only came on `74 and some `73 Beetles/`Ghias - but Chaiwanese Repops are readily available and they'll do. Some alternators have some ribs on the underside which keep them from settling down into place on some aftermarket pedestals - easy enough to file those down, just be sure to check the fit first thing - it sucks to discover that you have that problem just as you thought you were nearly done with the job. http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMPI-ALTERNATOR ... zp&vxp=mtr
If you can find a good used German one for $25 or less, I'd choose that over the counterfeit. To transfer your breather/filler can over you'll need to buy/rent/borrow a special tool to remove the gland nut which holds it to the pedestal. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Empi-5761-Vw-Oi ... 08&vxp=mtr Personally I use a 1" internal pipe wrench, which can remove nuts even when they're extraordinarily tight or buggered up from someone trying to get them out with a chisel.

34PICT-3 carbs which came on alternator-equipped cars had a modified accelerator pump linkage to provide clearance to the larger-diameter end of the alternator. You don't have to have that, though, since you can bend the "carb-style" linkage over a bit and grind/file a small trench in the alternator housing to provide clearance.

The original German Bosch internally-regulated alternators carried the regulator under the brush-holder assembly, so it's not difficult to change with the alternator in place - IF you can locate one.
The current Brazilian-made Bosch alternators have the regulator mounted under the fan-end bearing plate - the regulators are readily available but to replace it you have to remove the alternator and partially disassemble it, which kinda sucks...but hopefully you'll never need to do that.

[Marc]

hey thanks,

I did hear the signal relay "fluttering" one day last week during a day ride. I just flicked it lightly. it seems to be behaving for now. I'll look at it and see if I can take the cover off...I'm also looking for a way to put a heated blower to the car for driving in rain. it doesn't have to be high wattage just enough to heat the air a little to evaporate condensation on the windshield inside.

The t'signal relay has nothing to do with the headlamps, I'm referring to the dimmer relay that switches back & forth between high & low beams.

Prepare to be disappointed by an electric heater/defroster - they can only raise the temperature slightly above ambient, a simple fan will work nearly as well.

...The best you can hope for from an electric heater is a slightly-warmer-than-ambient spot in the immediate vicinity of the heater. Do the math, an alternator only puts out around 50 amps and most of that is needed when the headlights, wipers, etc. are in use - what's left over is all you have available for heat (I'm assuming that you don't want to run your battery flat)....think of the amount of heat that comes off of an incandescent light bulb - that's not going to help much. Getting the trunklid to seal snugly will do more - if you can feel a draft through the fusebox when driving down the road, your car needs attention in this area like most Bugs do...
My son installed heated seat cushions in my Bug, and they help considerably. They draw around 10 watts on high, which isn't much - but when it's applied directly to your butt and back it's noticeable.

[rrb6699]

im just thinking dry air coming out of the vents. I have an original generator still. I guess I need to check the output to be sure what it's doing.

im going to order the mexican and German trunk lid seals. if the German doesnt seal well enough, I'll add the Mexican seal as well.

ok, maybe I got the right relay wrong name. I know which one was making noise. looking from the front its the relay on the left. is that the dimmer relay?

it sounds like I need an alternator. mamotorworks have models at 50 & 60amp output. could I go with the 60? I'm beginning to think it's impossible to get enough power without thinking outside the box. what do they do on other vehicles with high amperage demands and two batteries, etc. to get more power?

I have a single Weber 2bbl carb with a small air cleaner, so, not nearly the stock carb setup. I had posts with a rear view of my engine but when I go to my attachments in UCP, none exist anymore. ill have to take a photo and repost one.

[rrb6699]

well the signal relay gave out. the headlight relay is still intermittent. and I do notice the voltage regulator doesn't click when headlights are on.

[Marc]

Have you checked the length of the generator brushes yet? If the regulator settles down under a higher load, that's often a sign that the brushes aren't making good contact.

The stock alternator puts out around 50-55A; there exist rebuilts which are rewound for higher output as well as new ones (the latter are all from China to the best of my knowledge) rated at 75A and even 90A. For ~$300 you can get a 90A made with an extra internal cooling fan, too - probably smart if it's going to be heavily loaded frequently. I can't help with a recommendation, but it'd be wise to buy from someone with a good reputation for handling returns, even if that means spending a bit more...I don't have a lot of faith in any of them.

The stock wiring used on the generator is adequate for the 50-55A alternators, for anything beyond that it should either be replaced with heavier-gauge wire or supplanted with an additional wire from B+ on the alternator to the battery cable where it connects at the starter solenoid. Route it well and ensure that it won't be chafed or cut where it exits the engine compartment - it'll be "hot" 24/7.

Note that the 9.5x905La belt used on generators is inadequate for even the 50A alternator - it'll slip at higher speeds and cause the engine to run hot. Toss it in the trunk for an emergency spare and fit an 11.3x912La belt, that'll fit the same pulleys but transmit more power before it starts to slip.

Another thing you can do to support a "big" amplifier system is to add a large capacitor to the system which'll help when the amp's drawing heavily. An 8 or 10 farad cap costs $50-$60; the smallest one worth the trouble of installing IMO would be a 2 farad ($20-$30).

[rrb6699]

no never did that. if you mentioned how, ill go back and review.

ok when you say with engine idling check to see if brushes if they're jumping up & down, then press lightly on the top brush to see if it pulses smooth, am I supposed to remove a cover or something or can I do this without removing anything?

rebuilding the generator-what besides brushes need replacing?

on the regulator, it's 45 years old. I should replace it anyway. would either of these be decent replacements?

IAP 30019 12 Volt for GR15N Generator

AIRTEX / WELLS 5K1 AdvanTech with 12 Volt Generator

not sure of the reference to the GR15N generator means.

[Marc]

Some generators had a black plastic shield over the top brush access opening - it just snaps in place, if you can't pop it off with your fingers just pry it up carefully with a screwdriver tip. The bottom brush is open to the world, but you've got to be very careful trying to touch it with the engine running. Also be wary of the "back" side of the pulley, it has a couple of notches in it that can grab your sleeve and suck your hand in.

"GR15" is the Bosch "short" number for the 30A generator. GR15N means new; GR15X means rebuilt (although now and then you get a new one in GR15X packaging).
I've never used any regulator other than Bosch (30 019 for the 30A generator) - others may work as well but why risk it? If you update to an alternator, the generator regulator is superfluous and gets bypassed.

A fully-rebuilt generator gets all new windings and commutator and new bearings - basically all that's reused is the housing/bearing carriers & shaft/winding support. On low-buck rebuilds they may merely test the windings and turn the worn commutator down and cut out the "mica" between the bars. That works too, but the brushes will lose contact sooner as they wear when you start out with a smaller-diameter commutator.

[Marc]

im just thinking dry air coming out of the vents...

What I've done on a few cars is to remove the "muffler" under the back seat on the driver's side and install a booster fan there. Marine bilge fans work but most of them are plastic and may melt on a long highway run. I use the fan which is stock on a `72-up Bus (or a Type IV); it wasn't designed to pump hot air either, but they've worked for years for me.
This doesn't really give any more heat, but it does boost the demist/defrost action on the driver's side which helps considerably - even when idling at a stoplight, where the engine fan output is anemic, you still have some defog action (provided you have the back seat & floor outlets shut, anyway).
I wire them using a relay which is controlled by the charging system warning lamp wire - that way if you leave the car idling to warm up on a cold morning and the engine stalls, the fan will stop and not run down the battery.

[rrb6699]

ok I guess I have the original generator. ill look to see if theres a pop off cover on it. where do you buy the rebuild parts? also the one regulator I listed turned up the same Bosch regulator pic you sent in your link.

eventually I'll switch it to alternator setup for the 25 extra amps. I assume that means a different regulator, but, do I need to change out anything else besides that when switching to alternator?

[Marc]

Rebuilding a generator is not a shade-tree project. You might be able to replace the bearings and get it back together in functional condition, but that's about it.

There is such a thing as an externally-regulated alternator (both Bosch & Motorola provided them to VW) but starting around `74 they went to the internally-regulated type, and the wiring conversion required to run that type is trivial. Hardest part is making a good connection between the three heavy wires under the back seat. Alternator-equipped cars had an insulated junction block for three large female spade connectors, but you can put ring connectors on all three and bond them together with a bolt & nut (but the connection MUST be well-insulated since it's "hot" at all times. Other than that, you just need to butt-splice the small green & blue wires from the old generator regulator together for the warning lamp circuit to work. http://www.speedyjim.net/schem/gen_alt.gif

The original German-made Bosch carried the regulator under the brushholder but the current Brazilian AL82s have it inside, mounted in the void at the fan end. Those are a pain to replace since the whole alternator has to come out (and partway apart) to get to it, but that's the only way they come anymore.

NAPA carried a house-brand rebuilt of the Brazilian AL82 for $80 with a $7.50 core charge. Limited lifetime warranty and functional, but they weren't too selective about the cores they started with - some have woggled-out slots for the pulley Woodruff key. They're apparently closing them out now, they're listed at $72 with NO core charge if you can find one - but do check that key slot before accepting one. https://www.napaonline.com/napa/en/p/RS ... 0211588541

[rrb6699]

I rebuilt my 15kw generator that threw a rod a couple years ago. I dont doubt your word the vw generators are tricky to rebuild, but, just wonder why they cant be rebuilt. if only the brushes are worn that shouldn't be too difficult.

im all for the switchover to alternator. I like the idea of eliminating the external voltage regulator. plus you get more amps. do I need to change any fuses with the switchover to alternator?

are all makes of alternator decent quality or should I stay away from certain brands?