72 ish engine review

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hg1027
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72 ish engine review

Post by hg1027 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:37 pm

Hello, forum

Mostly an introduction, with a couple questions thrown in way after most of you will have stopped reading.

I have a beetle with a number on the tunnel that suggests 69, no number on the body but I was told 72, and an engine that's the third in the two short years I've owned it (BH975092 for those keeping score).

The first engine, in it after it had sat in a yard for 8 months or 4 months but hadn't been registered for 3 years, was taken apart and put back together by me, with no beetle engine building experience, and the neighbor, 81 years old, who pulled a greasy service manual off his garage shelf when I was pulling the thing off the trailer, so therefore must know what he's talking about. The car managed 2 miles before dumping oil all over and having no measurable compression.

The second engine was provided by a guy with an auto repair shop, built by his top beetle guy, or by his brother in law, or by the guy selling meth out the back door. I paid a couple hundred for this service. It managed about 25 miles, just far enough for me to get confident enough to put my money down on a lemons race, and rental gear, and then it boiled the fuel, refused to start at any temperature above ambient (tricky when it stalls in the middle of the pit road) and then locked up entirely with two bent valves.

I decided to leave it with the shop guy for a while (turned out to be about 8 months), unsure of my next move, and when I finally got around to collecting it last week, it had another engine, which couldn't be tested because the coil was gone. Fine. I have a pocket full of bonus money and some free time, let's get this pig rolling again.

On to the questions, after a few more rambles:

There's no coil, the distributor is a 009, and there are points, not electronic ignition thingy. What coil do I buy? Is the Blue Bosch usually the answer?

There's an electric fuel pump, not wired up at all, and there is no electric fuel pump relay to be found. I wired the car after stripping it for the race, so I know there's no relay hiding anywhere. I read there's no need for e-pump in anything close to a stock build, and this was free and has a single solex. Should I get a mechanical fuel pump?

I'm very close to just towing it to an actual reputable shop (like, for money, with a website and inventory!) and begging him to put me right. I'll have to show him my ebay special switch panel, but it's only like 3 wires so he should be able to figure it out. I just feel like surely I can pull this off, it's only a beetle, it's practically a lawnmower everyone says. But I would like to drive it again this year, so it might be worth it to start with a known quantity.


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SCOTTRODS
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by SCOTTRODS » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:51 am

BLue coil is safe bet... Mechanical fuel pump would be my choice on something of limited value as well... Don't take it to a reputable mechanic... it'll just drive him nuts that you have gutted the electrical and he has no reference material to set things straight. Find someone who does what you are aiming for, that has VW experience and maybe some lawn mower experience... and watch the mental wheels spin... enthusiasm might be a trait to look for in a mechanic if you aren't up to the job... but it all sounds super simple at this point... however your "track record" with this car sounds awful...
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

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hg1027
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by hg1027 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:43 am

Thanks. Yes, the record is bad. If I were a superstitious guy I'd probably dump it. I'll give it another try, it's too much fun when it works.

hg1027
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by hg1027 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:01 pm

Update: mechanical fuel pump installed, alternator type with the short push rod, coil bought and installed.

Current problem is the starter only turns the engine for a moment and then seems to disengage.

I can turn the engine over with what I imagine is reasonable resistance. I've turned over two other bug engines and several others in the past.

YouTube link:

https://youtu.be/HE58Ney872k

I've replaced the starter bushing, the lower drivers side had a rather loose bolt that I've replaced with the correct stud and nut, all points are tight, tried two different starters, new battery fresh off the tender.

This is the 130 tooth flywheel, 9 tooth starter. 12 volt starter and bushing, engine is unknown build.

What do I try next? Pull flywheel and inspect dowels? Pull plugs and see if it cranks without compression? Pull fuel pump push rod in case that's interfering? Image

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SCOTTRODS
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by SCOTTRODS » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:35 pm

In your video it sounds as if it's engaging, just nothing is turning on the rear end of the engine... That's not a positive thing usually... definitely pull the engine and see if the flywheel is still attached... I can't imagine how else it could sound engaged and turn the rear fully such a small amount... looks like its trying to turn by friction or something. Broken Crank? Sheared Flywheel pins? don't know how well your starter is engaging from the video but sounds like that's not the problem from my end...
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

Some pics of My Powder Coating work
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/terrellster/
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zenith10
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by zenith10 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:26 pm

I don't think the starter is the problem

hg1027
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by hg1027 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:13 pm

I'll pull it back out this weekend, to check flywheel and dowels and crank end play and anything else anyone comes up with. At this point I'm just hoping to find something before I have to split the case. Image

hg1027
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by hg1027 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:46 pm

Whoever had "flywheel not pinned to crank" pat your self on the back. I can spin the gland nut (and crank) while holding the flywheel. Once I can turn the air on in the morning we'll see what that looks like.

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SCOTTRODS
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by SCOTTRODS » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:54 am

Either way does not sound like it's gonna be a good thing. You will likely still have to pull the case apart and get the crank redialed at the very least... and that's just IF the crank is still good... The Gland nut is the one holding the Flywheel Onto the crank... the rear pulley bolt is just that... the rear pulley bolt... if that's what you're saying is movable while holding the flywheel, you still have a chance to save it... Would be funny if someone assembled the motor without any flywheel pins... but Things happen with even a good mechanic at times... Hope it comes out simple. If there are no pins it may be to your advantage. All you need to do then is install pins and insure they're not loose at all in the bores they occupy, on either half. If there were pins the crank may not be good enough to save... no telling til you get that flywheel off. Make sure and post some pics of what's in there and maybe videos demonstrating the problems and cures... never hurts to have good data for others to learn from.
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

Some pics of My Powder Coating work
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/terrellster/
My Facebook Page for Powder Coating
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001788886297

hg1027
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by hg1027 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:50 pm

Photos of the crank. I've been told to pull the crank and go straight to the machine shop, and that I have not much to lose so go ahead and try the cordless drill and an ez out. Happy to hear any thoughts here. ImageImage

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SCOTTRODS
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by SCOTTRODS » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:20 pm

Won't hurt to try the drill and some sort of removal tool... Not sure ez outs would be the ones, but could just do it. I also recommend taking it to the Machine shop and have another set of holes drilled and have the flywheel done to match it as well while there... But that's just what I recommend... I might try the fix it at home thing as long as I am resigned to possibly replacing the crank if it goes badly.

HOw's the Flywheel look?
Last edited by SCOTTRODS on Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

Some pics of My Powder Coating work
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/terrellster/
My Facebook Page for Powder Coating
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001788886297

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SCOTTRODS
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by SCOTTRODS » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:22 pm

And change that seal while you're in there... even if it looks good.
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

Some pics of My Powder Coating work
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/terrellster/
My Facebook Page for Powder Coating
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001788886297

hg1027
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by hg1027 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 8:43 pm

Old dowels successfully drilled and pulled out with a screw. Looking for input on egg-shaped-ness specs, these look acceptable for what I'm doing (want to hear it for general health and determine how long I have before rebuild/Subaru swap/etc).

These are 8mm diameter, not sure if exact length is a concern, but ~12mm. I can find matching bits and clean up the drill fuzz and measure if it's important. ImageImageImageImage

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SCOTTRODS
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by SCOTTRODS » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:19 am

You need to pull the crank and the flywheel and have Both re-drilled 90 degrees out with NEW HOLES and NEW DOWELS... size basically less important as long as there is plenty of meat left around them, and plenty of length of dowels (You can get new dowels from any number of Aftermarket VW parts houses, that are already the correct in sizes...They're not really expensive either...) Here's a Video on how to do your own 8 dowel with a jig you can buy... you could probably do the same and just drill it using this kit. https://www.amazon.com/DOWEL-DRILL-TOOL ... B003LIRLTG

Here's a guy using the kit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlrd8e_hxs0

If you had 4 perfect holes on both halves, could just put new dowels in, but I'd probably recommend the extras set of dowels and holes since you're trying to race with this stuff, no matter the power output of the engine, due to the nature and type of driving and harsh use it will be getting. I plan on an 8 dowel crank and flywheel in my next street engine build, even... it's just stronger.
I have found them completely missing more than once. - PILEDRIVER

Some pics of My Powder Coating work
http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/terrellster/
My Facebook Page for Powder Coating
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001788886297

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: 72 ish engine review

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:05 pm

SCOTTRODS wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:19 am
You need to pull the crank and the flywheel and have Both re-drilled 90 degrees out with NEW HOLES and NEW DOWELS... size basically less important as long as there is plenty of meat left around them, and plenty of length of dowels (You can get new dowels from any number of Aftermarket VW parts houses, that are already the correct in sizes...They're not really expensive either...) Here's a Video on how to do your own 8 dowel with a jig you can buy... you could probably do the same and just drill it using this kit. https://www.amazon.com/DOWEL-DRILL-TOOL ... B003LIRLTG

Here's a guy using the kit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlrd8e_hxs0

If you had 4 perfect holes on both halves, could just put new dowels in, but I'd probably recommend the extras set of dowels and holes since you're trying to race with this stuff, no matter the power output of the engine, due to the nature and type of driving and harsh use it will be getting. I plan on an 8 dowel crank and flywheel in my next street engine build, even... it's just stronger.
I agree with Scottrods. If you are just racing (autocross and road for example) you are putting a lot of action/loading/potential movement at the join between the flywheel and the crank. If you are drag racing and put the loud pedal to the rev limiter then dropping the hammer you are making that connection work even harder.

In engineering there is/are what is called "minimum edge margins", these margins are the protection for connections, whether they are bolts, studs, or in this case dowels from having the edge material fail/fracture. Reducing the minimum edge margins by opening up the holes is pushing the failure rate to the limits.

"8-dowling" is a much better and safer way of doing things. After all, you don't want your flywheel and clutch combination beating you to the finish line do you :wink: :lol: .

Lee

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