914 FI and turbo

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tango
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914 FI and turbo

Post by tango » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:25 pm

Hi,

I am in UK down south, been lurking here for a while, there seem to be a lot of interesting things and knowledge here.

I have spent the last year or 5 on and off welding / rebuilding my 73 2.0 as you do.. This is now running 2056, original heads with bigger valves, cam, 8.5 CR and Dellortos.

Which is great, done all of maybe 400 miles.. Then prog FI and turbo caught my eye, sounds like ..

So the plan is to turbo / FI my spare engine. I would aim for smooth early/ drivable boost building to lots of boost, not a drag car but drivable with as much boost as I can push.

I would rather avoid chopping the car so positioning turbo is a bit tight, here is my plan, pending your input of course. I am not sure which forum to post in so I am posting 914 specifics here and type 4 engine details in the forced induction forum.

I thought about using the original headers and placing the turbo back near the stock muffler but that seems too much header and oil return issues so I am thinking of welding up a complete new header.

Stubs off the heads to 1.5in header up to passenger side opposite to starter in front of the driveshaft as high as possible to allow the oil drain to go to the head ideally. I am still not sure wether to bother with equal length pipes, then 2.5in turbo back to muffler in approx stock position.

Turbo to point/blow towards the back of the car through a chargecooler and turn back toward the engine bay, into the bay and pressurize a single TB on stock 2.0 plenum / manifolds.

I think I should be able to fit the charge cooler rad and fan on the same side of the gearbox with a large oil cooler on the other side of the gearbox and probably a BOV under there too.

This seems the best layout for shortest header, anybody tried this, thought about it or got any ideas or see issues?

Thanks.
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Post by Piledriver » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:16 am

Welcome to the forums!

Conventional wisdom says that the exhaust (up to) a turbo is really not that critical... The turbine gets in the way, and is the driver of how it works.

Evill Ed used (IIRC) a modified Bursch "header" on the stock HX and ran the pipe back into the engine compartment, then back out again.

(His car was in Excellence a year or three ago, search for his username and he has the article on his website IIRC)

If heat and working defrost is important to you (as in, you actually are going to DRIVE this) you should consider that.
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tango
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Update

Post by tango » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:05 pm

Little update.

Back to basics..

Did some work getting the car more drivable, 90Amp alt, hi torque starter, new gauges and sensors.

Was still not right, spent sometime on ignition and Dellorto settings drove for a few hundred miles.

Did valves and CR check and the cylinders are all over the place so I pulled the engine and heads to find serious sealing issues (and 44/37 stainless valves).. 96mm barrels look scored also.

Heads are now on their way to be sorted and possibly larger exhausts I think.. rough CC came out at 61cc? (usually 55?)

I have split the case, I am trying to order a Web Cam 119 on 112 LC, anybody know the email address to use or is it phone only?

I am also trying to order Remmele narrow bore lifter/bush set (no response yet - only emailed Friday) anyone know alternative supplier?

Also debating 930 1mm piston squirters install but concerned about welding the case and distortion at the flywheel end. Also what pump config to run, would a 30mm be enough?

Is there an alternative to the $ouch ARP headstud kit?

I'll post more as it happens.

Thanks
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Post by Piledriver » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:02 pm

The head leaks are sadly typical.
The valve sizes are fine.
Heat is the enemy--- Can you run E85?

Note than the ex guides should be trimmed back to where they go to full thickness, the "carbon relief" areas tend to chip off and end up tagging the turbine.

Len Hoffman does some other work on his turbo prep heads, send them to him if possible, esp if you have any ex stud work or welding needed.

Type4unleashed sells nice HD long head studs, but they are primarily for building big strokers, the sealing issue isn't the stock studs, it's the heads.

Stock/uncut 2.0 heads typically are around 65cc, so yours have been cleaned up a little.

Webcam doesn't ...do email well... You would be best going through a retailer, aircooled.net likely has what you want on the shelf. The price is the same... L.A.R.D (LA Performance) may have something as well.

You might also consider just buying the proven setup from Jake--- the 119 needs dual springs etc.

Think about new 94mm pistons/jugs to get thicker cylinder walls and drop the compression some, and just run the deck tight.

The squirter setup does not require welding, but they DO require a shop that knows exactly what they are doing.

Have the case deck cut true while apart.
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Re: Update

Post by Type 4 Unleashed » Wed Jun 10, 2009 2:28 am

tango wrote:Little update.

Back to basics..

Did some work getting the car more drivable, 90Amp alt, hi torque starter, new gauges and sensors.

Was still not right, spent sometime on ignition and Dellorto settings drove for a few hundred miles.

Did valves and CR check and the cylinders are all over the place so I pulled the engine and heads to find serious sealing issues (and 44/37 stainless valves).. 96mm barrels look scored also.

Heads are now on their way to be sorted and possibly larger exhausts I think.. rough CC came out at 61cc? (usually 55?)

I have split the case, I am trying to order a Web Cam 119 on 112 LC, anybody know the email address to use or is it phone only?

I am also trying to order Remmele narrow bore lifter/bush set (no response yet - only emailed Friday) anyone know alternative supplier?

Also debating 930 1mm piston squirters install but concerned about welding the case and distortion at the flywheel end. Also what pump config to run, would a 30mm be enough?

Is there an alternative to the $ouch ARP headstud kit?

I'll post more as it happens.

Thanks
Hey tango

For a Turbo location, I was thinking as you are, the same place in a 914, the header pictured, was one I found that is used on a Type lV in a bug.

For the charge cooler, I don't think underneath anywhere is a good idea. You have the engine, tranny and the exh temps to deal with, even with a fan, I don't think you would ever get a cool enough Int charge. It should be mounted in the engine bay, the best place to get a cool air supply.


Image
Image

If your talking about these lifters, I wouldn't use them on a Turbo motor. A Turbo motor requires some what more spring pressure than a N/A motor. For a Turbo motor, bush the case & go Type 1 lifters. For piece of mind I would think about Udo Beckers Tool steel lifters, they are a little pricey, but could save you money in the long run.

Image

Like Pile said, the stock head studs should be fine, but if you want new studs I can get cut to fit chromoly head studs, which are perfect for a large stroker but can be cut down to stock head stud length.

For oil pumps, I like the 38mm Revmaster.

The WEB cam may be special order, I don't think it's one that is normally stocked by retailer's, so I could order you one.

Now the cyl's, if their scored up after only a few hundred miles, I wouldn't even think about using them on a Turbo motor, and as Pile mention 94's would be a better option, or maybe even 93mm barrels, they would give a little more sealing area for the head.
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have the money to do it right, but can always
find the money to do it twice ?”

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Post by Piledriver » Wed Jun 10, 2009 7:58 am

Re: Intercooler... A Volvo 2>740 air/air fits in a 914 engine compartment disturbingly well, above the engine...

A little seal up work and you could be pulling 1700 CFM through it.
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Post by tango » Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:19 pm

Thanks for the input.

Aim would be to run pump, 98ron best here.

The heads are at UK 914/t4 specialist. Not quite sure what you mean on the carbon relief areas - I will search on it. I have a ceramic turbine garret 2556 on the shelf(tired) which is apparently sensitive to carbon damage. Not sure what I will end up using now I am back down to engine internals.

Definately still with new 94mm pistons/cyl and ditch the used 96s. Unless the Nickies fairy turns up..

I have 911 swivels, solid shafts, cam gear and the heads will be set up for the cam with light weight retainers so I really only need the cam other than lifters so Jake's kits would be unnecessary.

Once I know the full head situation I can get a better idea on case work, t4 lifters seem to be 'difficult'. I am sure the ones I have pulled are beginning to pit already. They weight 136g.
Yes those (in the pic) were the type I was looking at but I think you are right on the T1 type, Udo Becker's seem best but I will also need to cost for rods and clutch yet..

The squirter setup still seems a good idea and the valves themselves fairly cheap so I will look into it more. 38mm pump? that is interesting could it be too much? I was originally going to retain the stock cooler/ relief pistons, I have a large ext cooler and thermostat setup to add, perhaps I will look into blocking off the std cooler now.

That header is exactly what I had in mind, working around the 914 shift rod could add a little. Is that 1.5in? I was also getting concerned about the heat under the back for air intake.

The Volvo IC arrangement you mention, I assume you mean use the cooling fan pull through the engine bay? Any concerns around heating cooling air into the engine at all?

Looks like I may have a serious look at getting the spare engine running so I can drive the car over the next month or so.
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Post by Type 4 Unleashed » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:23 pm

Once I know the full head situation I can get a better idea on case work, t4 lifters seem to be 'difficult'. I am sure the ones I have pulled are beginning to pit already. They weight 136g.
Yes those (in the pic) were the type I was looking at but I think you are right on the T1 type, Udo Becker's seem best but I will also need to cost for rods and clutch yet..
Those lifters I pictured are the Porsche 356 style lifters, that weigh in around 43g. The shaft on those have probably 1/2 the O.D. of Type 1 lifters.
The squirter setup still seems a good idea and the valves themselves fairly cheap so I will look into it more. 38mm pump? that is interesting could it be too much? I was originally going to retain the stock cooler/ relief pistons, I have a large ext cooler and thermostat setup to add, perhaps I will look into blocking off the std cooler now.
No the 38mm pump is fine high volume is never too much, and plus you will be running an oil line to the Turbo, and will have a pressure drop from that. I've ran them for several years and really like them.

And if you run the stock fan setup keep the stock cooler.
That header is exactly what I had in mind, working around the 914 shift rod could add a little. Is that 1.5in? I was also getting concerned about the heat under the back for air intake.


I don't think the routing on the 1-2 side will interfer with the shift rod ? That would have to be looked at more.

I don't remember the tubing size, but think maybe 1 5/8", and believe this was on a 2.0 ltr, but the guy who makes those is in Germany, I will look for his site. What I didn't like was the waste gate coming off a primary tube, it should come off the collector, or the Turbo. But what I did like was the bracket that he made to support the primaries from the 1-2 side to help support the weight of the Turbo.
Yes those (in the pic) were the type I was looking at but I think you are right on the T1 type, Udo Becker's seem best but I will also need to cost for rods and clutch yet..
I can get 2.0 ltr jrlned H beams, in 5.160"-131mm, 5.325"-135.3mm and 5.5"-139.7mm lengths.

The clutch, won't be a problem, you will need a good pressure plate. Kennedy has a Stage 1 & Stage 2, for the 215mm 914 flywheel. I think you could get by with a Stage 1 on a Turboed 2.0 ltr, but don't hold me to that. I've ran them both, and think for a 2.0 ltr the Stage 1 would work, but for a Turboed 2.5 ltr or larger a Stage 2 would be needed.
Last edited by Type 4 Unleashed on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Piledriver » Wed Jun 10, 2009 5:28 pm

The carbon relief is the little counterbored area at the valve head end of the guide. It doesn't have much cooling or support and needs trimmed back.

Richard, are you drilling out the relief valve return to sump drilling to ~ 10mm? No high oil pressure issues with the 38?
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Post by Type 4 Unleashed » Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:17 pm

No, I am not drilling out the relief return, and have not blown up any oil filters... :lol:

But I did blow one of the front plugs that should of been tapped and had a screw in plug, on a fresh build at start up.

I run the Brad Penn oil, but it runs thin.
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have the money to do it right, but can always
find the money to do it twice ?”

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Re: Update

Post by Type 4 Unleashed » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:25 pm

Type 4 Unleashed wrote:
tango wrote:Little update.

Back to basics..

Did some work getting the car more drivable, 90Amp alt, hi torque starter, new gauges and sensors.

Was still not right, spent sometime on ignition and Dellorto settings drove for a few hundred miles.

Did valves and CR check and the cylinders are all over the place so I pulled the engine and heads to find serious sealing issues (and 44/37 stainless valves).. 96mm barrels look scored also.

Heads are now on their way to be sorted and possibly larger exhausts I think.. rough CC came out at 61cc? (usually 55?)

I have split the case, I am trying to order a Web Cam 119 on 112 LC, anybody know the email address to use or is it phone only?

I am also trying to order Remmele narrow bore lifter/bush set (no response yet - only emailed Friday) anyone know alternative supplier?

Also debating 930 1mm piston squirters install but concerned about welding the case and distortion at the flywheel end. Also what pump config to run, would a 30mm be enough?

Is there an alternative to the $ouch ARP headstud kit?

I'll post more as it happens.

Thanks
Hey tango


If your talking about these lifters, I wouldn't use them on a Turbo motor. A Turbo motor requires some what more spring pressure than a N/A motor. For a Turbo motor, bush the case & go Type 1 lifters. For piece of mind I would think about Udo Beckers Tool steel lifters, they are a little pricey, but could save you money in the long run.

Image
Hey Tango

Here is another lifter option, that I should of mentioned before, Type lV bodied lifters with Type 1 heads.

These slip in the stock lifter bore, so no bushings, but the lifter bores do have to be machined flat like what have to be done for the Type 1 lifters. The push rod cup is about .400"-10.16mm higher in the lifter, needing that much shorter push rod. They also have the Lube-A-Lobe option.

In the pic the one on the left is the WEB Cams lifter which weighs 116g

The one on the right is a SCAT Lube-A-Lobe which weighs 96g

The new ones weigh 113g.

Also, which I should of mentioned before should the Type 1 lifters or even the 356 style lifters are used and these lifters also, the back side of the bearing jrl for the Thrust bearing on the cam, the casting has to be clearanced for the No. 4 exh lifter and depending on the base circle, any raised casting numbers or lettering, have to be machined below the height of the base circle, or the lifters will hit them destroying the lifters.


Image
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have the money to do it right, but can always
find the money to do it twice ?”

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Progress is slow but sure.

Post by tango » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:59 pm

Some progress, much slower than I would like but it takes time to think things through, search, think again, order etc..

Here is the car, I have now refitted a backup engine and gearbox, not drivable but ready to at last start on the header now that I have the stainless bends, flanges and stub pipes.

Image

I was thinking perhaps I should start other threads in the type 4 engine / EFI / forced induction and keep this 914 specific? or I could just drop what I can in here.

New to me 1700 case with some work now done, all galley plugs (I could only get Al) - not as tricky as I thought to do, 914 dip stick tube - complete pain to do, squirters - ..possibly not worth the hastle..?! but I like the idea. Also blocked the cam bypass and mechanical fuel pump area. I need an oil dipstick blanking plate, odd stud offset?!
Image

Image

The original 94mm pistons, small dish. I also have a very good set of big dish 94s
Image

Sleeves for T1 lifters, coil ignitor units and Porsche 930 squirters AKA splash valves.
Image

FI stuff, Megasquirt, JimStim, relay board, temp sensors, fuel pump and vacuum valve for boost control - I think I may make a custom loom and relay arrangement hooked into the 914 relays and fuses where possible rather than use the relay board.
Image

914 2.0 plenum and inlet manifolds.
Image

36-1 toothed wheel to replace the spacer washer and pickup mounted on the back of the cooling housing.
Image

Throttle bodies, both are 60mm. The left one is from a Fiat Turbo 20v with stepper idle bypass and heavily narrowed throat for the initial throttle opening, the opening is shaped to follow the butterfly until the throttle is past the first quarter or so for improved response. The other TB is GM V6 with PWM bypass and less shaping of the throttle opening but with a secondary shaft instead for gradual partial throttle opening.
Image

Other parts are on order, cam and pushrods on the way from AC.net, oil pump from EMW and the heads should be back tomorrow from Stateside tuning.

Comment and opinions welcome!

Thanks
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1973 914 2.0 turbo undergoing a bit of a mech refresh (Running!)

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tango
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Re: 914 FI and turbo

Post by tango » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:45 am

Still waiting on heads but managed to finish tacking up the header after running out of bends.
Working around the shift rod and clutch was a little more complicated than expected but done now.

Image

Image

I was going to tack up the header on an engine and gearbox off of the car but I realised it was more complicated to clear the shift and clutch so I ended up with an engine in the car, working and tacking upside down, I HATE that.

The header has to go up over the shift rod and back down under the gearbox, I think its in 4th gear in this pic, 4th being the closest to the header it would get.
Image


Still concerned about lifters - toolsteel is very tempting, as time passes seems a better option and the cost less important.. case is now sleeved for T1 lifters.

- Tango

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Re: 914 FI and turbo

Post by david58 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:47 am

Nice fab work. That is one tight fit.
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Re: 914 FI and turbo

Post by Piledriver » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:10 pm

VERY nice!

A place in Utah is making ceramics again for less then the Austrian tool steel lifters go for...
Supposedly in stock.

They also make T1 tool steel lifters, will know more tomorrow.

(See related thread in Type4um)

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