Home- signal from cam gear

[TomiSe]

Hi all. I'm converting my batch injection to sequential and need home- signal from cam gear. At the same time I'm changing to direct fire ignition instead of wasted spark. I'd like to get ideas where to mount the hall- sensor in T1 engine and also what kind of sensor is best for this purpose.

[Piledriver]

Modified late Vanagon/Mexi T1 hall effect dist or Pertronix in a locked 009 are the sane solutions for sync.

Cut off 3 of the 4 "wings" on the Bosch hall effect dist, "lose" 3 of the 4 Pertronix magnets, same on a compufire
A Dremel to the points cam would probably git`r done with a set of points... and they would work fine, and last ~ forever used like this.

Assuming you are using MS2, distributor timing jitter is a non-issue, the actual timing is derived from the missing tooth crank wheel.

[TomiSe]

Distributor would be easy solution but I cannot use one. I have seen pics of sensors drilled next to oil pump but I'm not able to find them now. I'm thinking of Cherry GS100701 sensor drilled through the case at 10 o' clock next to the oil pump, above the oil gallery, and then just a simple bolt to the cam gear for pick up. Timing is not a problem, I can adjust the position of both rpm and home signal timing with software.

[miniman82]

A bolt in the gear sounds like a win, that was going to be my suggestion. So long as it doesn't cause interference issues with the pump, it should work fine.

[arr_kid]

A proximity sensor mounted in the valve cover watching a rocker arm would give a sync signal.

[Dale M.]

This seems pretty simple and quite elegant....

http://lowbugget.com/crank_trigger.html

Should not be to hard to setup to your exact specifications (modify) .....

Also what about original FI flywheel "trigger" got a hole in rear of case?...

Dale

[SUbuggy]

This seems pretty simple and quite elegant....

http://lowbugget.com/crank_trigger.html

Should not be to hard to setup to your exact specifications (modify) .....

Also what about original FI flywheel "trigger" got a hole in rear of case?...

this wont work for a "cam synch". it has to turn at 1/2 crank speed. this would work for a CAS (crank angle sensor). for the same reason the flywheel wont work either. just wondering why is the distributor "off limits"? way to easy to modify an 009 for a cam signal.

[Dale M.]

My only question is how are you going to get "sensor" to see cam gear..... Somehow or other you have to penetrate case and end of sensor or complete sensor is going to be bathed in hot engine oil.....

There is also some magic electronics out there, A simple "flip-flop" circuit is a divide by 2 circuit.... If you a already adapting electronics one more chip is not a project killer....

I though concept was to get rid of ugly distribuitor body .....

Dale

[miniman82]

I though concept was to get rid of ugly distribuitor body.....

Well, it IS a thing of beauty the first time your car runs without one, I can tell you that much. When that happens, you'll never go back to 'the old way'. A divide by X counter won't work, because you'll just get a random output pulse whenever the thing sees X input pulses, so it still wouldn't really be synched to anything. The crank could start anywhere, and so long as the counter got it's X pulses, it would be happy. Best thing is either sensing the cam position directly with a hall/VR sensor, or using the distributor body modified to suit.

[TomiSe]

The beauty if sensors like Cherry of Hamlin is that they do not care if they are covered with hot oil. They still work. I have been driving without distributor for years now and have other stuff in it's place and relocating them is quite a job. Crank trigger works well with wasted spark and batch fire injection, that's what I had and I will still be using it for rpm signal. Sequential injection allows me(at least I hope so) to run more agressive cam and still be able to cruise around part throttle and floor it without hesitation. Now I still got some, and want to get rid of that.

Also, I'd like to know what kind of coils are you using with direct fire ignition. I was thinking of 034 motorsport's coils one per cylinder. They are very expensive so cheaper options are welcome.

[Piledriver]

My Evil Plan is to (at least ) initially use a pair of HD Twincam coils (Delphi) and short plug wires in a CNP setup.

They come in neat molded pairs but are individual coils, IIRC I paid ~$35 for one and $20 for the other, NIB.
They share a common connector for power, hot, and have a common ion sense line I'm hoping to use for something interesting.

Part# 31743-01, make sure it's the Delphi unit and not one of the knock offs that look identical.

A lot of HD owners "upgrade" their ignition, but are oblivious to the fact that the stock coils form their knock sensor...

[Dale M.]

I though concept was to get rid of ugly distribuitor body.....

Well, it IS a thing of beauty the first time your car runs without one, I can tell you that much. :lol: When that happens, you'll never go back to 'the old way'. A divide by X counter won't work, because you'll just get a random output pulse whenever the thing sees X input pulses, so it still wouldn't really be synched to anything. The crank could start anywhere, and so long as the counter got it's X pulses, it would be happy. Best thing is either sensing the cam position directly with a hall/VR sensor, or using the distributor body modified to suit.

Yah... I can see that now..... Forgive me, I am just venturing into FI and I'm still on the low end of learning curve.... I didn't realize the "the precision" timing requirement of the impules....

Dale

[Redline Weber]

My method is to fire the fuel injector ONCE per cycle. (not for GDI or DDI)

That method requires four channels for a four cylinder, or an "injector channel" for each cylinder.

NO CAM SENSOR "CAS" is required to do this work.

We manufacture an excellent four post (waste spark) coil with a list price of $65.00 (street price is under $50)

This same style of coil can be found on MANY engines in the wrecking year.
There are many other coils for DIS, the Ford modular engines use our coil, one coil per sparkplug,
There are many "twin post" coils to be found in the wrecking yard.

There is one rule, when you connect the plug wires,
"YOU MUST MATCH EACH COIL TO A PAIR OF CYLINDERS THAT BOTH HAVE THEIR PISTON AT THE TOP OF THE BORE".

Lance

[miniman82]

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that you are using Ford's coils, not the other way around? You're right about the wiring of the waste spark coils though, took me a little bit to understand how they work. With a 4 cylinder EDIS coil pack, the coils fire alternately. Pair #1, then pair #2. Pack pair #1 goes with cylinders 1/3, pair #2 goes to 2/4.


Edit: found a pic that illustrates the point I'm trying to make.



You can see the coil is numbered for cylinders 1/4 for pair #1, and 2/3 for the other. This is for an engine with the firing order 1-3-4-2. Since the VW fires 1-4-3-2, you have to swap the 3 and 4 wires. The wire for cylinder #3 will go to the post maked for 4, and #4 will go where #3 normally goes.

[Piledriver]

My method is to fire the fuel injector ONCE per cycle. (not for GDI or DDI)

That method requires four channels for a four cylinder, or an "injector channel" for each cylinder.

NO CAM SENSOR "CAS" is required to do this work.

We manufacture an excellent four post (waste spark) coil with a list price of $65.00 (street price is under $50)

This same style of coil can be found on MANY engines in the wrecking year.
There are many other coils for DIS, the Ford modular engines use our coil, one coil per sparkplug,
There are many "twin post" coils to be found in the wrecking yard.

There is one rule, when you connect the plug wires,
"YOU MUST MATCH EACH COIL TO A PAIR OF CYLINDERS THAT BOTH HAVE THEIR PISTON AT THE TOP OF THE BORE".

Lance

Your waste spark systems have OEM style ignition current feedback to sense which cylinder just fired ala late GM DIS?
I assume the individual cylinder ignition/injector timing/per cylinder fuel adjustments work with the waste spark...?
(OP asked about sequential, you must have some sort of sync for true sequential, either directly or indirectly)

Hmmmm... You could probably get that sync signal back from a GM DIS coil pack... GM does.
(Off to Google...)