CIS conversion ?s

[you]

hey all....been busy trying to collect parts and read all the posts on here regarding the topic and now its time to actually start building....but before i commit i just wanted to ask a few questions, make sure im not overlooking anything, and get fresh input (lots of the search results are a little dated)...

so the vehicle this is goin into is a vanagon (read no space constraints, although it does have an aux heater that occupies a good portion of the belly)....engine is 94x71 with rat 9550.....

so far parts collected are:

bmw 320i fuel dizzies, meter plates, and wurs (trying to get bore stroke ratio and displacement close to mine).......

volvo 240 dizzy, meter, wur (why not, they were free).....

mb 380 fuel pumps/accumulator/filter assembly

mb 500 wur (i saw three "vacuum" leads coming off it and i would like to try and get this thing load sensitive possibly)

mb "gold" injectors....the ones you find on ebay for twenty bucks

what im trying to do:
id like this set up to be ridiculously simple and bullet proof with as little electricals and other componentry goin on as possible......all while still maintaining some tunability

?s:

injector placement- im using stock plenum and runners...injectors will be aimed directly at the backside of the valve but how deep should they be into the runner....those mb injectors are kinda long, do i want the tips as close as possible to the valve or should the injector be kept out of the airstream?...(same ? for the cold start, its long as well but will be in the plenum)

pump and sump- since the mb pump assembly uses the larger diameter inlet i was planning on fabbing up a sump/accumulator that will be 'y'ed from the tank outlet and the return line.....im hip to making this sump kinda large too as i would like to carry a little more fuel as well....will there be any need for a small feeder pump or will gravity feed from the tank and the return line be sufficient (the mb unit has two pumps already)? should there be any concern about venting it?

meter head-so i have the 320i and the 240 units but now im stuck on which to use, both are just cis w/lambda.....ive seen piles comments about using the -e meters with the pot and i like the idea, plus the units will be newer....but that means i have to source another meter...any ideas on compatabilty of the older meters with the mb wur?....do i even really need the wur? and if so any ideas on the plumbing? from what i saw on the benz all "vac" lines went to the same elbow about two inches apart with another line plumbed in between (wish i had looked closer but time wasnt on my side)...its cool to just cut the frequency valve out of the equation entirely right?.....and if i do go -e meter all i would need is the simple circuit to trick the dpr, right? no wur, no fv, two wires and done?

injector lines- i was planning on scrounging some of the braided lines off a vw er audi but im having second thoughts....generally i dont like braided, hold grit/hide hose condition...but then again it would be a simple hookup......on the other hand i look at the hard plastic lines the bimmer used and there is a bit of cool factor at being able to see fuel flow through the lines....anyone have any idea at what material they use on these and is it a royal pita to run the lines and attach the fittings?....are the braided lines beneficial in heat transfer er anything?

air meter-i plan on using the 320 meter plate...its 60mm and the engine is oversquare......but the air intake on the 240 looks like a better design(still using the 320's meter)...ive read that you want the largest air volume possible under the meter but is there any special design characteristics that would make it beneficial to stick with the 320's?...

i think thats enough questions for now.....any tips er input are greatly appreciated...thanks for the help and have a great day-sean

[Jadewombat]

?s:

injector placement- im using stock plenum and runners...injectors will be aimed directly at the backside of the valve but how deep should they be into the runner....those mb injectors are kinda long, do i want the tips as close as possible to the valve or should the injector be kept out of the airstream?...(same ? for the cold start, its long as well but will be in the plenum)

pump and sump- since the mb pump assembly uses the larger diameter inlet i was planning on fabbing up a sump/accumulator that will be 'y'ed from the tank outlet and the return line.....im hip to making this sump kinda large too as i would like to carry a little more fuel as well....will there be any need for a small feeder pump or will gravity feed from the tank and the return line be sufficient (the mb unit has two pumps already)? should there be any concern about venting it?

meter head-so i have the 320i and the 240 units but now im stuck on which to use, both are just cis w/lambda.....ive seen piles comments about using the -e meters with the pot and i like the idea, plus the units will be newer....but that means i have to source another meter...any ideas on compatabilty of the older meters with the mb wur?....do i even really need the wur? and if so any ideas on the plumbing? from what i saw on the benz all "vac" lines went to the same elbow about two inches apart with another line plumbed in between (wish i had looked closer but time wasnt on my side)...its cool to just cut the frequency valve out of the equation entirely right?.....and if i do go -e meter all i would need is the simple circuit to trick the dpr, right? no wur, no fv, two wires and done?

injector lines- i was planning on scrounging some of the braided lines off a vw er audi but im having second thoughts....generally i dont like braided, hold grit/hide hose condition...but then again it would be a simple hookup......on the other hand i look at the hard plastic lines the bimmer used and there is a bit of cool factor at being able to see fuel flow through the lines....anyone have any idea at what material they use on these and is it a royal pita to run the lines and attach the fittings?....are the braided lines beneficial in heat transfer er anything?

air meter-i plan on using the 320 meter plate...its 60mm and the engine is oversquare......but the air intake on the 240 looks like a better design(still using the 320's meter)...ive read that you want the largest air volume possible under the meter but is there any special design characteristics that would make it beneficial to stick with the 320's?...

i think thats enough questions for now.....any tips er input are greatly appreciated...thanks for the help and have a great day-sean

Generally, shorter injector is better. I used early Volvo ones for a couple of different reasons. You can probably fab up a spacer for each injector to pull the tips back a bit out of the airstream. Would be interesting to see different readings at different lengths if you can provide those/play around with the different lengths of the tip in the manifold. Set one in a manifold and take a look first before mounting on the engine if you have spare one laying around.

I wouldn't bother fabbing a sump unless you're really resourceful and or have a lot of time on your hands. Just pull one off a VW cabriolet from the mid to late 1980s or buy a new one(it's a white plastic box--sealed unit). www.vwvortex.com classifieds. I didn't have one on my bus for reference either. I'd try just 'T'ing the lines first.

You running basic or with Lambda?

Injector lines, just run all-braided, or all-plastic but don't mix them. The issue with braided I found was the length depending upon where you mount your meter. The black lines you should be able to pick up at a truck (18-wheeler) place and soaking them in hot water and slipping on the ends, it takes a couple of times to get it fully on though.

Try different meter plates, no simple answer. Where in the powerband the power is made is affected by the meter size and cone shape, see here for example http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=132192

Good luck with it.

[you]

thanks for the reply, wombat...its good to talk to someone who has done this before rather than just relying on what ive been able to read

Would be interesting to see different readings at different lengths if you can provide those/play around with the different lengths of the tip in the manifold

it would...and we'll get there but first things first, i need to get the engine running...once thats done and im feeling comfortable with tweaking the system ill get the rest of the probes and all installed for some proper data logging...no access to a dyno but seat of the pants should provide something...

I wouldn't bother fabbing a sump unless you're really resourceful and or have a lot of time on your hands

yup....i may go the cabriolet route if youre talkin about what i think youre talking about, but first i want to exhaust the larger sump idea....right now im kinda thinking i might have some old smaller propane tanks that could be getting some bungs welded on.....or i may do like ray suggested in the other thread and use the largest fuel filter i can find.....

You running basic or with Lambda?

basic at first but depending on which dizzy head i decide to use there is the option for me to either use my wideband to simulate the closed loop or i have another wbo2 gizmo that could get used for it.....i would rather not go to all that trouble provided i can get the thing tuned without all that hooplah....just one more thing to fail.......part of why im goin this route is i had the ground strap tear off last feb while traveling and roached the heads when ljet went to limp mode

as fer the lines, in all likelihood they will be braided but those clear lines got me thinking for a minute...hot water eh?....i wasnt too far off, tried a lighter and spit the other day...didnt have much luck with it

Try different meter plates, no simple answer

the air meter will be from the 320, that much im fairly certain on...i was thinking more about which dizzy to use...240 for more fuel, 320 since its "matched" to that cone, or an -e dizzy so i can do away with the wur and tune it with this:


thanks for the link.... i dont think that post ever came up in any of my searches....

[Piledriver]

The CIS injectors (including the brass MB ones) can be retained in the factory injector hold downs with a very simple trick... and at the right depth.

I have posted pics before, I'll try again in this thread when I get home.

Basically you use a valve spring retainer with a 1/2" hole drilled in it, it sits under the nut and on top of the fat CIS oring.
You needs a little bit of 1/2" tubing slightly flared for the spacer, and another oring at the manifold seal.

It's quite bulletproof.
I woudl use a whole metering unit off a ~92 Passat. The cis metering units of the updraft type fit any updraft style air cleaner box.

Example---I used the CIS-motronic meter on a 77 Scirrocco air cleaner box cut down for vertical clearance.

[sideshow]

...I have posted pics before, I'll try again in this thread when I get home.

I've never been able to find your posting! While I haven't been able to replicate this myself this is a potential of how it is done.

[Piledriver]

Thanks, sideshow, glad someone else has a copy.

In the bottom pic the flare is visible, I added it after the top pics were taken.

You want about a 1/8" "bite" on the flaring tool both ends.

I want to say the tubing length is 1 3/16" but years have passed since I made those.

The OD of the retainer has to be reduced a bit to fit the holders (using stock retainers anyway)

I used the same setup on a T3 with factory manifolds etc... Worked a treat.

I should compile something and put it up.

[you]

thats pretty slick....i knew there was a reason ive been hangin onto those retainers....this is much better than i was planning, all ideas i was coming up with meant molesting the runners...thanks to both of you.....

now off to find the -e stuffs and other goodies.....was there any specific reason you mention the passat....theres a kid on clist around here thats supposedly parting out a 91 gti....

[Piledriver]

thats pretty slick....i knew there was a reason ive been hangin onto those retainers....this is much better than i was planning, all ideas i was coming up with meant molesting the runners...thanks to both of you.....

now off to find the -e stuffs and other goodies.....was there any specific reason you mention the passat....theres a kid on clist around here thats supposedly parting out a 91 gti....

No particular reason other than that's the last setup I used. (2.0 16V IIRC, I want one in my Cabby)
The 91 GTi may have the same setup...

Get ALL of it, the -M meters use fine thread viton oring sealed injectors that are quite reliable...
(I used the meter with the basic lines/injectors... worked fine, but if teh others are good...)
Don't forget the thermotime switch for the cold start--- I always forgot it.

The CIS-M setups were also "chippable"... if you want the full meal deal., get the computer/wiring harness and everything.

[you]

oh its motronic...i was thinking the 2.0 16v were -e for some reason, guess those are the mk2's..im not so hip to what all the different waterpumpers run....

depending on the costs of things ill grab as much as i can (some friends think they should create a new show just for me that combines hoarders and scrappers er whatever theyre called)...this conversion is coming off the a la carte menu...unless that thermotime is unique to the system ill prolly just skip it, already have too many of em...and i dont plan on using it anyways, one more thing to break...cold start will be a bump switch like you run...

do you have a decel valve plumbed in?

[Piledriver]

oh its motronic...i was thinking the 2.0 16v were -e for some reason, guess those are the mk2's..im not so hip to what all the different waterpumpers run....

depending on the costs of things ill grab as much as i can (some friends think they should create a new show just for me that combines hoarders and scrappers er whatever theyre called)...this conversion is coming off the a la carte menu...unless that thermotime is unique to the system ill prolly just skip it, already have too many of em...and i dont plan on using it anyways, one more thing to break...cold start will be a bump switch like you run...

do you have a decel valve plumbed in?

No. I was running it pure mechanical with the DPR zero tweaked.
Only electric parts were the pump/relay and manual cold start, which puts a real brain into the cold start/warm up logic.

The Motronic meter can really move some fuel if the pump can keep up..

[you]

are we talking about the same thing...deceleration valve, i think some people call it a vacuum limiter....the overrun throttle bypass dealie that looks like a sideways ufo.....does this mean you dont use an aux air regulator either?.....im really liking the sounds of your layout

ok so i was at the salvage yard (no motronic or -e dizzies but i scored another free -basic setup minus the lines of course , ) and we started talking about fuel sumps and oversized fuel filters and he suggested that i check out heavy equipment setups ie cat/international diesels and such....might be able to find one that has the ginormous fitting the mb pump uses plus a built in water seperator....sounds promising right......are there issues with this that im not seeing (im kinda thinking i wont find one thats inline and thus ruining the gravity feed) er does anyone have any suggestions on trucks or machines that might use something that could work?

[you]

hey all....so i scored a -e dizzy and meter off a mb 190e to play with and was hoping to bounce some ideas off you guys....the air sensor pot has a range of ~1k-5k (i havent yet tried adjusting it to see how much variation i can get)....but at 12v this would yield a control current of ~2.5mA-10mA which would supposedly be too lean using the -e dpr (maybe work as is with a motronic dpr?)...will this be enough/too much range if the -e dpr is mechanically tweaked to run richer at the 2.5mA?....i was also planning on plumbing the fpr to manifold vacuum for load enrichment as per this linky: http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=28250 as well

im thinking this setup might help with the issue of cis running lean at high rpms/load, allow for wot enrichment and a leaner idle mixture, and using existing electronics/very simple wiring keep me from having to adjust the cone profile.....sound feasible?

[Piledriver]

Sounds feasable, I was using the -E 5K pot for awhile, but found it wasn't needed.

What you NEED is some programmable load enrichment, as CIS is a MAF system and oblivious to MAP.

Instant "programmable Hobbs switch": SMC ZSE30.
http://www.automation4less.com/pdfs/ise30.pdf

Find one on ebay etc ~$50.

Makes for a great vacuum gage too.

There is a more expensive dual setpoint version as well, in case you want lean cruise as well as high MAP enrichment.

Modifying the cone isn't that hard tho...It doesn't have to be pretty, just secure.
The -e/-M meters have a straight taper, no profile.

Have the switch run a small relay, and feed whatever extra current you like to the DPR via a pot.
AFAICT, the -E and -M DPRs only differ in the mechanical "zero" setpoint. which is adjusted with a tiny setscrew.

[you]

time for an update:

not all that much has happened really excluding scoring more parts (its bordering on ridiculous, now have something like a dozen different systems) and working out little details like mounts and plumbing, mostly a lot of staring at parts and scratching my head...exhaust is back on the vehicle with the tins and fins removed from the heaterboxes (i had an old pair of hx's that a po had somehow managed to melt...but the flanges were still great)...itll be curious to see how oil and head temps will be affected, shame theres too many changes this go round to really be able to correlate cause and effect...

managed to get my injector holders done...the spacer is the aluminum clothes rod from a westy closet...


heres a look at how the injector sits in the manifold...these are the mb 'gold' units...p# 047 i think:


other than that ive decided the mb two pump setup will feed a 1.8l 8v jetta(?) -e dizzy with a mb 190e(2.3l) dpr, sitting on top of a volvo 240 air intake....what im undecided on is whether or not to use the fpr from the vw or the mb and which cone profile to start with...heres the options(the purple lines are where the profile changes):


any suggestions?

[you]

.....big pictures are easier to see, right

[edit: sorry dial up peoples, i resized to 800x600 in photobucket but everythings still big, what gives?]