Help me decide on EFI for Frankin bug [hello Mario]

[terryly]

The quad EGT/CHT will be useful for warnings and triggering safety shutdown or limp mode (which is a programmable thing you can set up on MS3, in case of sensor failure or whatever)

For what you ae looking at, you have a choice of a JBPerformance CAN-EGT or an IOX. (IOExtender)
The CAN-EGT is sold/stocked by DIYAutotune, the IOX (AFAIK) still needs to be bought direct from JBPerformance.

The can-egt is a lower cost, simplified version of the IOX.

Having said that, the CAN-EGT is the "expensive" subset of an IOX, as all those TC amplifier chips are not cheap.
A full IOX may not be a whole lot more for the added features, esp with LC2s, as they mount externally.

To see 4 WBO2s would (probably) require an IOX rather than a CAN-EGT..
(double check--- the can-EGT might do it if it kept the IOX serial port, on LC2s)

The IOX (IOExtender) can listen to 8 WB modules and put the data on CANBUS, and that can be used to tweak the AFR of each cylinder in real time.

Via an optional larger case, it can internally power/mount up to 8 14point7.com modules (the little OEMS, via i2c) or listen to 8 LC2s or whatever over the innovate serial daisy chain setup.

All these toys would be suitable for a razors edge race engine or heavily boosted street ride, but are extreme overkill on a typical "stock plus" engine, unless you have a really, REALLY bad instrumentation fetish

Point taken I thought ms3pro could use 4 wide band o2 controllers to trim individual fuel tables [apparently I need to reread the ms3pro manual a couple more times] as I said it is a lot to digest. So had myself talked into the can egt. Should probly walk before I run. just want all the hardware in place before before going to figure out wiring harness Try to avoid re doing things
TERRY

[Piledriver]

My bad, just checked the docs, is set up with 1 channel but the 3 spare analogs can now be set up for WBO2.
That would work great for a 4 banger.
Can likely do the same on std MS3, I'll check.
(yep, many port choices, looks like it can do six if you aren't using ADC6,7,11,12,13!)

I might order a small herd of the latest OEM eval kits for the 4.9 sensors.
(LSU4.9 sensors are supposedly much harder to kill than the last gen LSU4.2s by design)

When I grow up I'll order an IOX, the modules will plug in or connect via a short i2c cable. most likely.
(the 14point7 OEM modules "talk" I2C)

There's a bus extender tranciever chip for I2C thats good for several meters of cable, sadly MS3 itself doesn't grok I2C directly, the IOX and children are the solution via CAN. (Hmm I2C<>SPI conversion?)

I'd still personally prefer digital inputs over analog, prevents calibration headaches, but that's usually a one time deal.
The Spartan2s and all the recent 14point7.com widebands do a 2 step self test with known AFR/voltages output that should make calibrating them easy.
(not sure if there is per-channel analog cal capability via TS, but I'm sure it can be done directly in the .ini)

I would still research a full IOX vs a CAN EGT for your specific needs.

[Piledriver]

just thought that package with a large fuel filter would be a good idea.

It IS a great idea, but not $74+shipping worth of great when the same parts go for ~$20 @retail anywhere, you could probably beat that price by 50% at NAPA, paying full retail list price on everything.

Did a bit more research, you can also do a TinyIOX for $75, it speaks I2c OR innovate serial and supports 16 WBO2s...
Now we just need cheap thermocouple amps that speak i2c and you have everything, cheap...
OOOOooh they exist!, even cheap!
Maxim actually makes a module that spits out SPI (but the addressing needs hardware lines i2c doesnt...
They also make a 1wire cold compensated setup thats <$3 ea, vs $10 for the old school analog amps, I THINK 1wire is I2C or a compatible variant.

So you could put 8 i2c TC modules and 4 WBO2 14pont7 modules on a small board with the TinyIOX for ~$500, including the widebands..(not including sensors of course)

I hope Jean makes it so I don't have to dust off my old pcb cad software.

(yes, I must confess to having a suppressed instrumentation fetish myself, I'm just totally cheap)

[terryly]

Thanks pile just had my head in the docs as well and found out the same. What 14.7 products would you recommend to get 4 channel wide band o2. to me it looks like the Spartan 2 would be the ticket for me [6' cable ,easy 4 wire hook up , automotive grade components ,extended temperature components ,no calibration and here is the icing water dust & dirt proof]
Terry

[Piledriver]

Thanks pile just had my head in the docs as well and found out the same. What 14.7 products would you recommend to get 4 channel wide band o2. to me it looks like the Spartan 2 would be the ticket for me [6' cable ,easy 4 wire hook up , automotive grade components ,extended temperature components ,no calibration and here is the icing water dust & dirt proof]
Terry

It depends on if you are still considering an IOX/CAN-EGT.
I have been doing my due diligence...
The CAN-EGT HAS the serial port for innovate comms, so it should be able to see at least 8 LC2s just fine, digitally.
It MAY have an I2C interface buried in there too, still researching.

If still looking for analog and NEVER plan on going with the CHT/EGT setup, spartans rock.
If there is a chance you will go with the CAN-EGT, go Innovate LC2.(it has analog and digital outs)
Go with the LSU4.9 sensors if you can, the LSU4.2s are obsolete.(should be a ~zero or low cost option)

Spartans are.. spartan. Analog out only. (Likely are really made from the OEM modules but the i2c lines are not routed out)
They are similarly available with 4.9 sensors.(firmware change vs 4.2)

Hmmm... theres a new Spartan2 OEM that replaces the SLC OEM module. Speaks I2C and analog.
I assume you have to order it specifying the i2c address as the address is set in firmware load as there is no room for jumpers.
(the pic on the website at this time is actually of an slc oem, not the new board)
The price is certainly right.
http://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-2-oem

[Chip Birks]

Pretty sure the iox is the cheaper route, and is MUCH more capable than the can-egt...
EDIT...
I just looked up my price quote stuff from JBperf and find than in order to do the full 3 layer iox/logger board(8 channel egt components only)/slcOEM interface board and big case the cost was 409 to my door. So a hundered bucks more then the diy product and way more capable.
I haven't added the slcOEM adaptor to mine yet, so that is saving me $85.
I had to build my own serial interface for the LC2, but it works fine. My only beef with the products from Jean is that he doesn't cut the end plates. I still need to cut mine, but for now just run without it.

[Redline Weber]

You may also want to investigate a ECU-422C-1-TTL from PanteraEFI.com.
The package price will be fair, about the same as MS3-Pro.
We have the LS-GEN-IV coil (our version with 10% power increase), sensors, harness kit or complete harness, etc.

Lance

[Piledriver]

Welcome back, Lance.

There is likely to be a new Spartan2 OEM carrier board for the IOX and TinyIOX ~as soon as the documentation becomes available.

I'm still researching interfacing the cheap and cheerful 1wire TC amps (and perhaps other 1wire sensors) to i2c>IOX, available for MS use/logging, while retaining all the std analog channels.
As MS now speaks more or less proper CAN the IOX (with updated firmware) will likely be usable on far more than MS2/3.

An MS2 with the MS2X board+MS3x as IO has a pretty fearsome I/O-feature set for the cost, and it will work just peachy even if you have a V2.2 or even v1.01 mainboard from 2001, and all features are enabled whether you want them or not...
But it really only makes sense if you already have an MS2.

A MS3 daugtherboard is only ~$100ish more than a MS2, and will plug right in.

The wallet just starts to pucker if you need a fully sealed ruggedized ECU.
(exception- Microsquirt)

The MS3-pro can't do anything the std MS3+MS3X cannot AFAIK, its just has the sealed case and AMP connectors, which is the cost delta. A MS3 built on a v3.57 board is all SMD. (I'd personally still prefer a v3.0 mainboard for ease of repairability, despite having all the required toys for SMD rework)

[terryly]

Thanks Piledriver. Was looking into the iox and Tiny iox amazing what is out there. Either I'm gonna have to smarten myself up or were gonna have to dumb it down for me. HAHA or try to meet some where in the middle But I will persist again thanks Pile
Terry Lytle

[Chip Birks]

I went with the pro for the packaging. I had a ms3/3x prior to it, I actually had to pickup the iox because the pro has a one or so less available analog inputs than the aluminum box package, I think it partially has to do with the lack of a board mounted map sensor. All I remember is that in order to run the second map sensor for constant baro support I had to add the iox. Since then I've taken advantage of the box, measuring pre and post intercooler temp, oil temp, individual CHT, serial LC2 input, line lock and 3 step are run through the box, as well and soon hopefully 4 channel wideband over the I2C network, possibly freeing up the serial for a gps or something.

[terryly]

Ok to wrap this post up i kinda convinced myself to not mess around. in the end I went with and have reiceved the MPh 42mm throttle bodies and a poly V serpentine belt crank trigger set up from VWSpeedshop and injectors from FiveO motorsports. and have placed an order for the following MS3PRO, LS2 coils brackets,wires Mini Cam Sync, Aircooled coolant sensor, IAT sensor, fuel filter, pump, regulator and a CAN-EGT courtesy of The Dub Shop I will still have to chase down the 4x CHT EGT sensors and AFR meters over the next couple of pay checks. I am also having Mario build me a wire harness. Really looking forward to getting these items in my hands and on the car. So far I have put the serpentine crank trigger and pulleys on and took her for a spin down some old cow trail. Then pulled it in to the shop and removed the distributor, carbs, fuel cell, pump and lines. I then fitted up the throttle bodies, plenums, injectors and intake piping. Looks very good
Thanks so much for your input
Terry "cant wait" Lytle

[MarioVelotta]

There is alot to read through up there.

But to get it out there, using the CAN-EGT you don't use any ADC inputs for the WB02 sensors. It's all done through CAN. In my own car I am using 5 LC-2 controllers daisy chained on the serial input to the CAN-EGT. With those 5 sensors mapped in TunerStudio I have EGO correction working per cylinder and it's amazing.

Here is a random screenshot of it doing it's thing.

graph.jpg

[volksbugly]

I didn't read all the above posts, I'm a bit busy here at work, so if I say something that isn't quite in context I apologize I'm going off the first post. Whatever you decide it sounds like your going to be doing alot of elevation change driving. If you go the megasquirt route you have the ability to add the "map daddy" circuit which will account for barometric pressure changes. If you go turbo then my point is mute.

Cheers and good luck!

[Chip Birks]

I didn't read all the above posts, I'm a bit busy here at work, so if I say something that isn't quite in context I apologize I'm going off the first post. Whatever you decide it sounds like your going to be doing alot of elevation change driving. If you go the megasquirt route you have the ability to add the "map daddy" circuit which will account for barometric pressure changes. If you go turbo then my point is mute.

Cheers and good luck!

Why don't turbo cars need constant baro?

[Steve Arndt]

I go up and down in altitude and it is a huge pain. Not so much with fueling, but ignition. 25 kpa makes the difference on my setup between 100% full load, and cruising. If I try to run a nice bit of "vacuum" advance under light load and pull some timing for full load that works fine in a given location. Then I hit the mountains and everything shifts in the tables down to lower pressures by 20 kpa. The fueling is mostly automatic correction with speed density and vacuum referenced pressure regulators. But it totally jacks up my ignition. Now full load in the mountains is adding a bunch extra advance because that was lean cruise in the town/cruise situation.

I have a basic table for barometric correction vs ignition timing. I haven't gotten it where I like it yet in all situations.

edit; my ECU has a second map sensor for constant barometric correction, has since 2005.