Help me decide on EFI for Frankin bug [hello Mario]

[terryly]

Hello Terry Lytle here. Wanting to change my Baja bug from dual 44 IDF knockoffs[Decades] and magnaspark digital distributor to electronic fuel injection and spark.
I bought a 74 standard beetle {Frank}that was already cut up into a bug eye baja bug that was ready for the scrap yard. The idea was to fix it up a little and tow it behind a 1976 GMC classic motor home. Kind of old school motor home + towing old school Baja bug =COOL. Well here I am that little fix up has turned into another one of my epic ongoing obsessive projects. {any body here ever suffer from that kind ailment }lol
I think I should start by telling a little about the car and its use then the engine
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1375458.jpg
CAR
74 standard
full roll cage
3x3 rear trailing arms
930 cv joints
6" wider king and linkpin beam tied to roll cage
1.5-1 saco rack +pinion steering
EPS power steering{silhouette}
14"travel rear shocks
12"travel front shocks
front/rear disc brakes
32"x11,5" x15" rear tires
sports car seats [cant remember]
power windows [roll bar interference]
002 bus trans with 10* Mount[cant remember gearing] will go with 094 next{stout reverse gear}
20 gallon fuel cell with return
4500# winch
All this makes for a fairly heavy car--- 2500# gear and fuel

ENGINE---what car is running now
2180cc
82 crank
5.4 h beam rods
92 thick wall p/s [94 super squish next year ?]
.050 deck?{oldtimers}
engle 110 cam
1.25 ratio rockers
Berg 26mm o ring pump
berg full flow pressure relief cover
full flow oil filter
Seatrab oil cooler/fan 180*
Mocal sandwich adapter
1.5"deep sump
CB magna spark digital distributor
CB los ponchito cnc ported heads
CB space saver intake manifolds[also have regular manifolds]
idf style 44 dual carbs [Decade] Throttle body to be decided
CB sand seal carb hatswith 2.5-3"silicone hose to 3"-4" Y adapter fed by
Donaldson cyclonic air filter{to prevent mud intrusion}
1-1/2 trimill quiet pack
Innovative MTX-L wide band sensor
Scat 36 hp dog house no heat
venture ring
flaps and thermostst
t3 cool tins
sled tins
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The cars intended use is to tow it behind our 1976 palm beach GMC classic motor home{another epic ongoing obsessive project} as a way to be able to

1- Run to town for supplies with out breaking camp{red neck grocery getter}1/2-3 hour highway 60 miles per hour cool running
2- Visit far off out of the way lakes and fishing holes light cruise
3- Explore logging roads/fire roads and two track trails in the Canadian eastern slopes of the rocky mountains. part throttle- light cruise in the rough-WOT no going rich with good throttle response
4-Beat the crap out of it- on/ off throttle- idle to wide open- extreme rough conditions- steep hills/ inclines up/ down and side ways
5-water/mud resistant- water and mud are a fact of life in my neck of the woods
6-putts around town go for dinner and visit friends- start easily idle well in traffic stop and go with good manners
7-cold -I am in Canada EH and it gets cold here early in the fall and stays late in the spring -oh yea sometimes visits in the middle of summer. I would like to use it as much of the year as possible and I have camped in October when the temp dropped to -22*C [-7*F ] It can also drop over night to 0*C [32*F] at any time of the year in the mountains

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OK Now for the meat and potatoes of this thread


Questions and advice please try to steer me in the right direction given the above info.If more is needed I will add it. Now I am not really that computer savy
so a system that is easier to tune would be better in my case.

Price I would prefer to pay less if I can and our dollar sucks right now but I will trade price for better, more suited or easierand will do what it takes please don't hesitate to offer something you may have and would like to sell
Vendors I have looked at Mario's products at The Dub shop NICE and he will likely be my go to source!
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ECU
When I first decided to go EFI I was really drawn to the SDS [Simple Digital System] brand of ecu as it would seem it is a fairly easy system to program with a Hand held removable programmer. They are located in my home town which is a big plus.Jake Raby was using them and had endorsed them in the past another big plus[proven and reliable have been used on aircraft with second to none tech support] Alas they seem to be lacking in features-- Batch fire only --Wasted spark only-- 250 rpm window other issues that I am not aware of Price they are a little on the high side
---------------PLEASE GIVE YOU'R THOUGHTS AND ADVICE ON THE ABOVE SYSTEM FOR MY APPLICATION FIRST HAND OR IN THEORY-----------------
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MICRO SQUIRT
Water resistant housing and connectors is high on the want list
compact
Is it possible to sequential inject with this ecu?
individual spark or wasted spark?
Any other pros or cons to a system like this?

The micro squirt route may be a good option for me as I have an opportunity to purchase a unused micro squirt V3 ecu -a pair of VFR throttle bodies adapted for IDF manifolds and cable pulleys -4 injectors -eddis 4 sensor -coils -trigger wheel-air temp sensor -map sensor -fuse box - relays- shielded cables - fuel pump -fuel lines -fuel pressure regulator all for around 1,000 dollars other systems would be at least 2-3 times that when all said and done and I am prepared for that, What would you do ??? [it sure would be nice to have some scratch squirreled away for a tranny that is on the agenda]
Would this fit the bill

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MS3-pro
Water proof
Sequential injection and spark
Intuitive tuning ? can this be explained?
"Allows multiple load types including specialized mode for independent throttle bodies" ? more explaining.
"Wide band AFR target tables" ? again.
"Individual cylinder trim tables for fuel and spark" pls explain
"Real time clock"
"Onboard SD card"

In laymans terms why would a person go with this system for a VW and specifically my type of car

This is the Ecu I would probly use unless I get convinced it's more than I need and an unneeded expense through discussion and research

Mario where are you lol I actually did not want to Trouble him till I start throwing some cash his way. The Dubshop's base tune services would be a smart time saving thing for me to use

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Lastly I would like to get more info on Throttle bodies VFR800-- VW Speed shop IDF,SP1 --others -any thoughts or insights ?
What is a good size of ITB to use for a lower revving 2180 [5000]with a 110cam

I am going to leave my car alone until after our Thanksgiving weekend [mid October] as that is our last camping trip so right now I am chomping at the bit wanting to pull the trigger and get some EFI GOODIES on the way
Sorry for the long post any advice and help would be much appreciated
please don't hesitate to chime in and I will keep you posted on progress

THANK YOU SO MUCH
Here is some picture links for you'r amusement

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1385307.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1275137.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1272627.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1270412.jpg

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1249556.jpg
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1370387.jpg


Terry EFI less Lytle

[Piledriver]

It is possible to get a microsquirt v3 preconfigured for sequential fuel, at least.
(maybe spark, have not investigated that. but waste spark is fine, ms2 lacks individual spark tables, just has 4 fuel tweak tables)

Its a surface mount level board/mod, so unless you do board level rework on smd for fun and profit just buy it that way.
If you want something in a sealable box/w/sealed AMP connector, that's the way to go short of an MS3-pro or something really hideously expensive...

The ONLY downside of a microsquirt is that it is not otherwise upgradeable or (for most) DIY repairable.
It will get the job done, and its cheap enough vs ~anything else to carry a spare, esp if the spare is a std uS unit.

There is also an easy/reliable adapter board to set a std box MS2 setup for full sequential fuel and spark if desired (on a /4) that practically falls together, no mainboard mods/hacking required. Uses an MS3X as an I/O board, drive injectors/coils etc...
Get it with the MS3 box and you are only a drop-in-a-ms3-cpu away from MS3 if you ever decide to upgrade.
(as long as you wire it like an MS3, and you can, I have switched back and forth several times testing it)

Mario can set you up with the ms2xt config, I'm not sure if he offers the uS w/sequential drivers added yet but I'm sure he will stop by.

[thedrew]

I'd re-evaluate your exhaust. 1 5/8's would be better.

[terryly]

Thank you Piledriver for your input. I down loaded and printed off the MS3-PRO manual Friday.flipped through it ,read it, high lighted what I thought was applicable then re-read those parts a bunch more. Kind of made my mind up to go with the MS3-PRO and just sent an email to Mario This Am I spoke with Paul from VW Speed Shop and ordered His 42mm IDF throttle bodies with the turbo plenums. Should work well the preventative mud /water intrusion intake parts and filter I already have and leave me open ended if I get brave or foolish enough to go TURBO .I think I will now have to think about where to put the coils and sensors to make them as resistant as the intake and ECU. I will probly change or alter the thread title or start a new one Again thanks Piledriver

thedrew Was wondering myself if the exhaust was large enough how does one tell formula? put a larger one on and dyno it? Its just a cheapo tri-mil bobtail 1.5 quiet-pack is there better options or will I need to build my own ?

Terry wondering about my header Lytle

[Piledriver]

Excellent choice.

On a low revving 2.2L 1 1/2" will be fine, might even help the bottom end a bit.
The Trimill Bobcat header works very well offroad and has a decent collector.

For a WBO2 I suggest a simple 14point7.com Spartan, although the innovate stuff is much improved reliability wise from all accounts.

[thedrew]

from my own experience, I started with a 1 1/2 and then went to a 1 5/8's and the engine had some extra oomph to it. But what the hell do I know

[Chip Birks]

I am a happy MS3-Pro user. It took a year for me to get happy with it, but after a major rewire at the ECU I am extremely pleased. Honestly, if I were to do it again, I'd go with 14.7 products over the innovate stuff. I do like the innovate serial chain thing, but I could just as easily swap to a group of slc-oems later, and at half the cost of the innovate stuff. Currently I am limited to innovate because I have a silly dash gauge that likes their signal. I will make the swap in the future though. It's just a matter of time for me. I highly recommend getting a harness through Mario, he does beautiful work and will eliminate all of the issues I battled through, just to save a few bucks.

[Steve Arndt]

from my own experience, I started with a 1 1/2 and then went to a 1 5/8's and the engine had some extra oomph to it. But what the hell do I know

Second this for the application. ^^

I didn't read in detail if you plan to use carb replacement ITBs or go with a plenum and single. If you go with ITBs don't go over 40mm (maybe 42 max). I have 45s on a baller 2275 in my baja and they are still too big. Had 48s before. Maybe third times the charm when I find some 40mm ITBs.

[Piledriver]

Who makes a decent exhaust for a Baja in 1 5/8"?

Steve, IIRC yours looks ~similar to a Bobcat, where's it from?

[Steve Arndt]

Mine is an S&S 1 5/8" merged. I heavily ported and detailed the collector.

Al's headers / Kymco are very similar. Nice 3/8 thick flanges and pretty easy to put on/off.

[Steve Arndt]

Who makes a decent exhaust for a Baja in 1 5/8"?

Steve, IIRC yours looks ~similar to a Bobcat, where's it from?

Mine is an S&S 1 5/8" merged. I heavily ported and detailed the collector.

Al's headers / Kymco are very similar. Nice 3/8 thick flanges and pretty easy to put on/off.

[terryly]

Thanks for the replys guys. Sorry for the late come back on my part. Life and work getting in the way of what I would be Rather be doing. I have been trying to research and start collecting EFI parts So I ordered these IDF style 42mm throttle bodies as per Paul from VW Speed shop https://vwspeedshop.com/home.php?cat=395
And the turbo plenums for them. This should work well with my Preventative mud/water intrusion control measures I have been striving for.I also decided to go with Paul's crank trigger Poly V serpentine set. It has a fairly small stout crank mounted 36-1 trigger wheel and a stout sensor bracket with differing size pulleys included for differing cooling needs [summer winter?] Hoping it will put up with the rigors of off road use. Wondering how tolerant of moisture or mud dust film the sensor will be ? May have to put a crank pulley tin on the Baja

Here is some links to some of my efforts to combat the mud
measureshttp://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php ... highlight= and http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... &highlight






Also trying to pick one of these up from a place called BC Broncos. But they are closed today will have to call on Monday. http://www.bcbroncos.com/store/product_ ... cts_id=119

It's a 1 quart fuel accumulator/filter. should work good in the rough




And this is sorta how I am planning the fuel system minus the 4 extra cylinders. I have in my stash a holley red top or the carter rotary pump for a low pressure feeder pump to chose from which one would you use ?? Do you have any thoughts on this ? Should I place my relatively new filter before the feeder fuel pump pre accumulator ? Should I be using a referenced fuel regulator with MS3-PRO ? Is there an Advantage to tuning ? I do have a fuel cell with a EFI return bung in it. Any other filter ?






Thinking of trying to score these off a fella they are a year old and used on a weekend cruiser for about 1/2 price of new Thoughts will this get the job dune ? They are from CB performance 7316 Airtex High Pressure Fuel Pump 7161 Fuel Pressure Regulator - Precision Flow Bypass EFI

from my own experience, I started with a 1 1/2 and then went to a 1 5/8's and the engine had some extra oomph to it. But what the hell do I know

Hey drew hows it going ? Yea I kinda know your right Probly gonna have to wait till next year though. Sorta had it in my head that I would go with the Super Squish 94 pistons as you and Steve are running and change the cam up to a Webcam 163 on a 105* LC. I will have to do some searching and research. I do have Those UDO Becker lifters
I see you are running fiveomotorsport.com/233usx-u ... - injectors I should probly try to figure what i'm gonna need. Look into different types of injectors and what will be needed as far as size and spray pattern. I would think that will need to be chosen wisely. Any body have any thoughts on this ? Any that stand far and above the rest ? New technology ? Things to consider or I need to wrap my head around ? Point me in the right direction fellas.

I didn't read in detail if you plan to use carb replacement ITBs or go with a plenum and single. If you go with ITBs don't go over 40mm (maybe 42 max). I have 45s on a baller 2275 in my baja and they are still too big. Had 48s before. Maybe third times the charm when I find some 40mm ITBs

Hi Steve ended up ordering the 42s if I know me and I do know me there will be changes In the future Are you still running that Pan Evac ? How's that working out That's had my eye for a little while. Care to elaborate. See if I can get the hose off the valve cover and have a proper breather. Got my eye on the CSP Porche style breather tower but holy donkey balls 300 beans !![


Haven't heard from Mario yet sent him an e mail from his web site. Must be a busy character these days and I got a bit of time to round all this tuff up. From what I can gather I'll be needing
Ms3 pro
Harness
Cam sync
dual LS2 coil package
Wires [spark plug]
Coolant sensor
Air Intake Sensor
Base Tune


Am I correct in thinking I do not need the Quad Spark module for MS3 PRO

I am a happy MS3-Pro user. It took a year for me to get happy with it, but after a major rewire at the ECU I am extremely pleased. Honestly, if I were to do it again, I'd go with 14.7 products over the innovate stuff. I do like the innovate serial chain thing, but I could just as easily swap to a group of slc-oems later, and at half the cost of the innovate stuff. Currently I am limited to innovate because I have a silly dash gauge that likes their signal. I will make the swap in the future though. It's just a matter of time for me. I highly recommend getting a harness through Mario, he does beautiful work and will eliminate all of the issues I battled through, just to save a few bucks.

]

For a WBO2 I suggest a simple 14point7.com Spartan, although the innovate stuff is much improved reliability wise from all accounts.

Can EGT [will monitoring 4 CHT &4 EGT help in tuning ? Can it be interactive with the MS3pro ECU or just for data logging
Will 4 channel wide band AFR be useful ? Can it be interactive with ECU

Thanks for your valuable time to too help a EFI newbe out. there is quite a lot to digest since I decided to go down this path


Terry Chomping At The Bit Lytle

ps sorry for the bold and italics text thought it would be easier to get my questions across and differentiate from my ramblings as you can tell I'm a computer greenhorn this poop takes me fore ever I am a good lurker though. Amazing what you can learn by sittin down and shuttin up and listen to the right folks

[Piledriver]

The quad EGT/CHT will be useful for warnings and triggering safety shutdown or limp mode (which is a programmable thing you can set up on MS3, in case of sensor failure or whatever)

For what you ae looking at, you have a choice of a JBPerformance CAN-EGT or an IOX. (IOExtender)
The CAN-EGT is sold/stocked by DIYAutotune, the IOX (AFAIK) still needs to be bought direct from JBPerformance.

The can-egt is a lower cost, simplified version of the IOX.

Having said that, the CAN-EGT is the "expensive" subset of an IOX, as all those TC amplifier chips are not cheap.
A full IOX may not be a whole lot more for the added features, esp with LC2s, as they mount externally.

To see 4 WBO2s would (probably) require an IOX rather than a CAN-EGT..
(double check--- the can-EGT might do it if it kept the IOX serial port, on LC2s)

The IOX (IOExtender) can listen to 8 WB modules and put the data on CANBUS, and that can be used to tweak the AFR of each cylinder in real time.

Via an optional larger case, it can internally power/mount up to 8 14point7.com modules (the little OEMS, via i2c) or listen to 8 LC2s or whatever over the innovate serial daisy chain setup.

All these toys would be suitable for a razors edge race engine or heavily boosted street ride, but are extreme overkill on a typical "stock plus" engine, unless you have a really, REALLY bad instrumentation fetish

[Piledriver]

NO.

Also trying to pick one of these up from a place called BC Broncos. But they are closed today will have to call on Monday. http://www.bcbroncos.com/store/product_ ... cts_id=119

It's a 1 quart fuel accumulator/filter. should work good in the rough

NONONOnononononono. No.

It doesn't really look like its actually even drilled for 4 fittings, it should be if done right.

PLEASE realize you can duplicate that $73 (ridiculous) fuel sump setup for about $20, or ~free if you are a packrat like many of us.
(I don't know how those folks face themselves in a mirror)

It's a simple generic remote oil filter mount with a pair of extra fittings drilled/tapped for the feeder pump and return.
The filter mounts cost about $10 + 4 brass fittings...


The airtex pump is a generic pump for a mid 90s Ford.
Not a bad choice, but check the part# and shop around.

[terryly]

NO.

Also trying to pick one of these up from a place called BC Broncos. But they are closed today will have to call on Monday. http://www.bcbroncos.com/store/product_ ... cts_id=119

It's a 1 quart fuel accumulator/filter. should work good in the rough

NONONOnononononono. No.

It doesn't really look like its actually even drilled for 4 fittings, it should be if done right.

PLEASE realize you can duplicate that $73 (ridiculous) fuel sump setup for about $20, or ~free if you are a packrat like many of us.
(I don't know how those folks face themselves in a mirror)

It's a simple generic remote oil filter mount with a pair of extra fittings drilled/tapped for the feeder pump and return.
The filter mounts cost about $10 + 4 brass fittings...

I see looks like they are using a T instead of 4 fittings

http://sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm
just thought that package with a large fuel filter would be a good idea.