BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

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Tinyvw
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BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Tinyvw » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:30 pm

So as you know I'm new here but not to the VW scene. ..I am however new to the turbo scene. ..this will be my first turbo build, no expense spared kinda build. ..that brings me to the subject in question. ..on a $12k build just for the long block, where do you draw the line? Right? ...the car in question is a 1958 Fiat 500 body on a custom built VW chassis with lots of travel and huge tires...my intentions for at least the first 2yrs is show and shine daily driver with occasional trails...I'm not building this to be a trailer queen, I want to drive the damn thing. ..I know that a acvw will benefit from efi when going turbo, so I have options. ..
the 1st one is a ms3 pro which I'm not a tuner and not really sold on that system yet. Cost??? Also not water proof.
the second option was a Fitech which supports 600hp and has a on board 2.5 bar map(not upgradable). Cost under 2k for everything. Is water proof
the 3rd option is a FAST XFI 2.0 with 5 bar MAP (upgradable) and smaller learning curve and I can customize the entire system. Cost about $5k is water proof, I like this system the best.
The 4th option was a Haltech 2500 elite, Australian company which I have read is hard to work with, otherwise a great system. Cost about $5k is water proof
5th option? ...maybe you have a suggestion

Those are my options. ..total costs include fuel lines, pump, crank trigger, all sensors, throttle body, injectors, ecu, ignition system, the whole works...when building a engine of this caliber with the boost levels I want to reach, everything costs more. ..the higher the pressure, the more ignition spark is needed so I will explain my demands for a efi system.

I want to run sequential fuel and spark and a crank trigger from the Dub shop...I want to use a BBK 87mm throttle body from a 4.6l Mustang. ..need full ignition control as well as individual cylinder trim, CNP ignition...needs to also have self learning capabilities for fine tuning as I drive...other accessories will include a Turbosmart controller with water/ meth injection running on 93 pump gas...I was going to go E85 but don't want the corrosion hassle to deal with.

I'm not asking for much, right? ...I know enough about efi to know what all the sensors do and their functions. ...I have a dream!

So let's hear the bashing about what I can and can't do...tell me I'm crazy cuz this is THE last and only engine of this caliber I will ever build...I would like to hear your experienced input from experienced racers. ..honestly, I just want to see the look of that Honda driver as a pass him bye in my tiny vw powered Fiat 500.

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Jadewombat
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Jadewombat » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:19 pm

Lots of (suspension?) travel, waterproof, and occasional trails...I assume this in an off-road car then?

How much control do you want of FI system to have (you personally, not as in capability of the system)? Or are you a set-it-and-forget-it person?

Tinyvw
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Tinyvw » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:48 pm

Jadewombat wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:19 pm
Lots of (suspension?) travel, waterproof, and occasional trails...I assume this in an off-road car then?

How much control do you want of FI system to have (you personally, not as in capability of the system)? Or are you a set-it-and-forget-it person?
YES, off road street baja with 33" tires. ..the reason for efi tunability is to control the high boost levels I wish to reach 40 lbs + and no I'm not a set it and forget it user...I am wishing to expand my technical knowledge and do as much as possible before waving the white flag :lol:

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Chip Birks
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Chip Birks » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:02 pm

Tinyvw wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:30 pm
So as you know I'm new here but not to the VW scene. ..I am however new to the turbo scene. ..this will be my first turbo build, no expense spared kinda build. ..that brings me to the subject in question. ..on a $12k build just for the long block, where do you draw the line? Right? ...the car in question is a 1958 Fiat 500 body on a custom built VW chassis with lots of travel and huge tires...my intentions for at least the first 2yrs is show and shine daily driver with occasional trails...I'm not building this to be a trailer queen, I want to drive the damn thing. ..I know that a acvw will benefit from efi when going turbo, so I have options. ..
the 1st one is a ms3 pro which I'm not a tuner and not really sold on that system yet. Cost??? Also not water proof.
https://youtu.be/SYec40tugsQ

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Chip Birks
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Chip Birks » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:05 pm

Its pretty easy to get around the corrosion hassle of e85 when you are starting from scratch. Coated tank, teflon lines, anodized aluminum and stainless. Many new injectors are made to handle any fuel now. Just buy the good stuff and run whatever fuel you want.

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Chip Birks
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Chip Birks » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:24 pm

My MS3-Pro setup is doing all that you want, plus everything else you want to add. I only have to interface with the ms3 to change boost, manipulate my fancy water/meth injection. I have coils that will fire 250hp per cylinder sitting in boxes ready to install with my next big re-do. I have 1000cc injectors, can run gas or e85 without worrying, boost, fuel and spark all adjusts based on ethanol content. I have 5 stages of boost. Launch control, burnout limiter, top end limiter, flat shift. It datalogs internally without a laptop. It has multiple speed sensors in place and has traction control. I have 5 widebands, 4 head temps sensors and 4 egt. I measure back pressure before the turbo. I watch temp before and after my intercooler, and one more after my water/meth. I read oil temp, oil pressure, fuel temp, fuel pressure, barometric pressure, manifold pressure and water temp.
Also, when it comes time to tune. It has a good autotune feature, has impressive afr, egt, oil and fuel pressure based safety systems in place that have saved my engine more than once. I know I am leaving stuff out. My point is, I'm using a budget ecu to do and monitor all of this. I do have a couple devices connected to it over a CAN network. But again, that allows me to have one central controller in charge of everything, and one central location to go back to for data.

Tinyvw
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Tinyvw » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:46 pm

SOLD!!...wow Chip!...I have never seen that version of MS3 before. ..I must have been looking at the wrong sites. ..all the MS boxes I've seen look like a square tin box...I am super impressed with the capabilities that MS3 Pro has to offer. ..I visited DIY AUTO TUNE and 1200 bucks! with a harness, I just saved 800 bucks! ...I'd like to hear more about your engine setup Chip...one of the main options I want to do is have a remote dash that shows as many functions as possible. ..your system sounds amazing and sounds very much like how I would like to set mine up...what kind of flex fuel sensor are you using? ...my ideal tune would run on pump gas using one set of injectors and as the boost increase IAT a second set of injectors will progressively inject the E85 along with a snow water/ meth injection as needed. ..there is a video on YouTube about a twin turbo RX7 with 1600hp using a setup as I just described, that car and video will make you giggle :lol:

Thanks for the YouTube video Chip...that booth was amazing!

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Chip Birks
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Chip Birks » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:28 pm

Another one bites the dust!

The Pro that I have is now obsolete, the boxes currently available are even cooler and better optioned. I would love to run an Ultimate. But alas, I've already spent the cash on what I have and it isn't maxed out yet.
I've seen the video of the rx7. Gotta love the rear view camera showing tire tracks as they mash the throttle. One thing to note on that one. They had a tank of 91 and a tank of race gas. They used the race gas and separate fuel system almost like you would with a wet nitrous system, but they did it to add octane.
I don't think you need to go that crazy. Just get a nice big set of injectors. You would be fine with something in the 1000-2000cc range I'd bet. I've got Injector Dynamics ID1000s. With the right fuel system in place they should support 400whp on E85. If you want headroom over that, go with 1300s or 1600s. Any of those injectors will be fine with gas or e85. Just run e85 when you want to make big power.
I use a Continental fuel composition sensor. Got it on Ebay from China for 50 bucks shipped. Its an OE GM part. There are a bunch of different ones available with different length pipes and such. It works really well, gives a very smooth signal.
Ms3 can talk to a Racepack digital dash setup. Did you see that on DIYs site? Its won't work in my setup, but something as wild as what you are building would fit it nicely.

I just have a pretty basic turbo'd 2276, with a set of fancy pistons, a big VWP cam and china heads ported by Shag Leone. I have a build thread on here somewhere. Been a while since I've done any updating though.

Tinyvw
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Tinyvw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:51 am

Obsolete is right Chip...your system is and the new one is 300 bucks more! ...anyways I'm still saving a bundle cuz the XFI needed a separate $450 ignition box to run the smart coils, with MS3 I don't need anything extra. ..so help me out here Chip...I'm going to list the sensors I will need to complete my setup and you tell me which ones I forgot or don't need or anything you recommend.

Throttle body? All I know is that I will need at least 800 cfm or more and looking for a single TB...should have IAC and TPS
IAT
Fuel pressure sensor
Oil pressure sensor
Oil temperature sensor
Wide band 02 sensor
Flex fuel sensor
#MAP sensor is built in
Air flow meter? Do I need this?
Cam sync from the Dub shop
Crank trigger from the Dub shop

If you can recommend a place to get most of the sensors from with water proof connections included that would be great...I did see the expense dash, shouldn't I be able to use a small laptop that costs less than 300 bucks to just display the sensors?...the kind where the keyboard folds behind the display screen and just stayed plugged into Tuner studio...and last question, is it possible to get a basic tune map from you to get me started or does ms3 have those already in the files?

Thanks Chip

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Chip Birks
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Chip Birks » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:45 am

Tinyvw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:51 am
Obsolete is right Chip...your system is and the new one is 300 bucks more! ...anyways I'm still saving a bundle cuz the XFI needed a separate $450 ignition box to run the smart coils, with MS3 I don't need anything extra. ..so help me out here Chip...I'm going to list the sensors I will need to complete my setup and you tell me which ones I forgot or don't need or anything you recommend.

Throttle body? All I know is that I will need at least 800 cfm or more and looking for a single TB...should have IAC and TPS
IAT
Fuel pressure sensor
Oil pressure sensor
Oil temperature sensor
Wide band 02 sensor
Flex fuel sensor
#MAP sensor is built in
Air flow meter? Do I need this?
Cam sync from the Dub shop
Crank trigger from the Dub shop

If you can recommend a place to get most of the sensors from with water proof connections included that would be great...I did see the expense dash, shouldn't I be able to use a small laptop that costs less than 300 bucks to just display the sensors?...the kind where the keyboard folds behind the display screen and just stayed plugged into Tuner studio...and last question, is it possible to get a basic tune map from you to get me started or does ms3 have those already in the files?

Thanks Chip
The new system is probably worth $300 more, considering the hoops I jumped through to make mine work. I have $1400 in boxes connected to it via CAN, to get some of the cooler functions, 4 added widebands, 4 egt, 4 cht, not to mention a bunch of the temp and pressure sensors.
Back in my old metal box MS3 days, I ran all of the sensors you are looking for without any additional boxes attached. The new Evo and Ultimate Pro boxes bring us closer and beyond the capability of the old square box units, along with the better connectors and box.

You do not need an air flow meter, because you have a map sensor.

Honestly, if you are looking for a one stop shop and awesome tech support afterwards go to thedubshop for your sensors, box, and let him build you a harness. Then all you'll have to do is hook everything up and get it tuned. He can even do that remotely.
Or you can spend hours scouring the internet, digging through junk yards and cross referencing part numbers with the parts pushers at AutoZone to save a buck on a sensor or two.
Mario has a very level head, and is usually able to talk me down when I have a wild but maybe slightly impractical idea. He knows what is needed, and generally can get it right the first time.
I don't see any reason why you'd need to run an 87mm TB. What size tubing are you going to run? I was told there really isn't any reason to run a throttle body larger than the outlet of your turbo. A large butterfly means more flow upon tip in. Before you know it, your plumbing will be flowing as much air as possible and you'll be at 25% throttle. Which means that the next 75% are pretty much useless. It also means that small throttle increases from idle are going to make a big change on the air entering the system. What you'll have is a car that is very sensitive to throttle change, until adding throttle makes no difference at all, making for a very challenging car to drive. The CFM numbers you are reading are based on NA stuff. You don't need a throttle body that flows 800cfm at atmospheric pressure, but one that can under boost, and if a 2.25 or 2.5 inch pipe is sufficient then run an equally sized throttle body. I run a 50mm.

As far as a display, I only brought up the racepack dash cuz you said you wanted something like that. If you go spend time on msextra.com and check out the forums you'll see that plenty of folks have done what you mentioned, usually with a tablet though. There are a couple of digital dashboard apps out there, some that datalog, others that let you actually tweak and tune.

Hopefully that was helpful.

Tinyvw
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Tinyvw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:09 pm

Thanks Chip, you have been extremely helpful. ..I am surprised that efi systems don't use speed density or MASS anymore. ..the last time I spoke with Mario back in September he said that he would email me a quote for a ms3 pro system. ..I have yet to receive that email . ..I just figured he thought I was just a dreamer or he got to busy to get back to me...at the time I was trying to buy a cam sync from him and he said that a new design was in the works and he didn't have any in stock...CB Performance doesn't know when they will get more in either. ..so, no sequential ignition or fuel until I can get that cam sync maybe I have to build my own :lol: :lol:...when I did speak with Mario he was very knowledgeable and informative about using the ms3...at that time I was sold on using the Haltech system at that time, but after discussing it with you and doing more research, I would rather have the ms3 pro. ..isn't there a way to use another vr crank sensor and modify the single to read every 4th revolution of the crank to think it's a cam sensor? ...it seems as though almost every sensor in the ms3 can be modified one way or another, especially with all the I/O terminals...I still want to use Mario's crank sensor setup. ..maybe I will try to get ahold of him tomorrow.

Thanks Chip for all your help

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Chip Birks
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Chip Birks » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:36 pm

MAP based is Speed Density. I think the high performance world prefers SD over MAF mainly because it simplifies the install. Its not hard to find high pressure MAP sensors, but large high flow MAF units are a little trickier to come up with. Its actually pretty easy to build a cam sync if you can't get an off the shelf one. I just used a distributor from a WBX Vanagon, cut 3 of the 4 tabs off and wired it in. This gets you the single pulse per cam rotation, its dirt cheap and works just fine. What is your main draw to sequential? You haven't mentioned running egt or cht or widebands on a per cylinder basis. If you aren't running those, you will have a hard time trimming the cylinders individually. Might not be a reason to add the complication.

Tinyvw
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Tinyvw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:39 pm

I was told by a 1/4 mile racer that when you hit 30 psi and up in boost that you will need a powerful ignition setup to light the cylinder charge. ..this is why I want the CNP setup cuz the ign. Coils will run cooler and have more time to charge in between cycles. ..if I have to run 5 02 sensors then I will if that's what it takes to do individual cylinder trim.

When I go to VW car shows all you see is basically the same engine with a different color or chrome bolt ons. ..what I want to build is a WTF factor in my motor, I don't have a budget per say but would like to complete the motor in the next year. ..my car is at the final stages of metal work so all I have left is paint and that will only take about 3 days using monsterliner and a undercoat gun...it's going to look sick!...I really want to test myself with the whole efi setup, meaning that I will order the harness with no ends and wire the entire efi system myself. ..I'm pretty good at wiring hot rods, vw bugs and I did one bus and a boat. ..I understand the electrical engineering involved behind the system so I'm not scared and didn't want to purchase Mario's plug in one...I want to build a motor that can have a few tunes with the flip of a switch, one for daily driving around town, another that can be used for off road use, and another one for maybe running the 1/4...I'm pretty anal when it comes to doing anything on my car, especially the wiring. ..I like everything soldered and shrink wrapped. ..when I do custom rod wiring I use stainless steel connectors made for marine use cuz they always look great! ...those connectors are super strong, not flimsy like that cheap crap you buy at the parts store. ..the shrink tubing I buy has a sealing epoxy that is released as it shrinks. ..I am really excited about wiring this efi system together.

One of the reasons why I need to use Mario's cam sync is because I am installing an A/C compressor right where the dizzy use to live. ..I want to mount the compressor as close to the case as I can.

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ps2375
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by ps2375 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:08 pm

You could get away with a wasted spark setup that will allow the coils to run cool enough. Or you can run individual coils triggered in a wasted spark configuration and all you'll need is the crank trigger wheel. Full sequential doesn't buy you that much more, considering the added complication,imho.

Tinyvw
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Re: BIG hp turbo efi...which one?

Post by Tinyvw » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:46 pm

Mario just sent me a email saying that the new batch will be ready in April, I can wait until then. ..if it wasn't for me using a compressor I would be willing to use your oxy dizzy mod Chip.

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