003/090/010 Automatic parts/tech data

[Piledriver]

Seeking perfect clarity on exactly which seals need to be regularly replaced to keep the ATF out of the gear oil and vice versa... (Ray Greenwood suggested changing on schedule @~50-70K miles)
This prevents munching the ring and pinion, as dexron 3 doesn't make it for hypoid gears..


So far:
1)010/090 seals are #089-409-529D (transmission can to differential seals around shaft. for pinion)
TWO are required.
This pair of seals (one on trans side and one on diff side, at least on the 090) are the primary suspects that need regular replacement.

Can you do the job with ONLY those seals or are there others that need replaced due to splitting the diff from the trans?

For the 003 pinion seals, still tryingto confirm #, and if it gets two.
(based on reading several build threads, two, one on each section, is correct, but part# not confirmed)
(Work in progress) found callout of TIMKEN 223010 for 1973 squareback automatic transmission pinion seal...
Interestingly, this is a ALSO called out as the tq converter seal for all 68-92 VW automatics...
cross references to Audi# 010-409-085D/E

2)The factory torque converter seals are part#003-519-089D (003/010/089 all same)
Installing two is not technically required but strongly recommended (for redundancy)

"Do not get gear oil on these soft silicone seals.
If that occurs, cleaning them apparently does not work: Discard and buy new."
(...This per multiple sources, i'm personally kinda dubious silicone seals are smart enough to know one hydrocarbon oil from another almost identical hydrocarbon with EP additives)

Note the above Timken part# that is called out for both pinion shaft and Tq converter seals must work with both ATF and gear oil, assuming the cross reference is correct. It is likely not a soft silicone seal, silicone is about the worst possible choice in a rotating seal as to wear, Viton or many other choices are ~100x better in a moving seal...

BTW---Cobra Transmission shows the brake bands for the 003 in Kevlar... need to ask on the frictions.
They make the kevlar brake bands, exchange.

[Piledriver]

Still no confirmation on the 003 pinion seals, so I'll order a few and see for myself.
EDIT--- Tore it apart and looked.
Tearing the diff assy out of the final drive took maybe 3 minutes, very easy.
The magnesium final drive outer housing is amazingly light, like lift with an extended pinky light, I may have bought heavier loaves of bread.

These are the famous ATF leaking "diff killer" seals--- Both of the pinion shaft seals are 003-519-085A
in post below, Page 5-18, item#4

The easy one to replace on the end of the can, doesn't seem to be shown, but its there, is shown in the Bentley, and is obvious when you split the trans can and diff.

That one is easy to get to at the back of the diff housing, (pull out the diff insert) and only sees splash oil from ATF side and one of the pinion bearings. Install it with the lip towards the diff, regardless of how it was installed.

The OTHER, buried pinion seal is at the other end of the pinion shaft, behind the tq converter seal.
THAT one literally seals the tq converter return oil passage from the diff..
Either one can probably fill up the diff with ATF, but the one behind the tq converter seal can likely do it in a hurry.
(I visualize that as "most likely to fail")

The buried pinion seal physically lives directly behind, the tq converter seal, inside the bearing race. it can come out after removing the pinion, lip towards converter (edited post-replacement

Did find a transmission friction specialist who will very merrily reline stock 003 frictions and bands with hipo kevlar or Raybestos carbon metallic lining for ~same price as stock, and even set custom thickness.
(The friction material itself is a ~insignificant cost per part as % of fabrication, even for the carbon metallic, and it all comes in near net thickness rolls or thin sheets anyway)

They are a (re)manufacturer, and usually don't sell direct, but will as its an oddball their distributors won't touch.
Will see how it goes...
Need to see if I can score some extra thin steels to get more friction discs in.

[Piledriver]

Ray Greenwood sent factory exploded parts breakdown for a VW 003.
Not sure what book these are from but its chapters 3 and 5, exploded/illustrated parts breakdown.
Let us test the new board softwares uploaded pictures per post setting:
It's >=ten, but there is a limit. Beats the hell out of 3.

Note: Must load to list in reverse order.

Here's section 3: (003 transmission can)

[Piledriver]

003 illustrated parts breakdown section 5: Type4 (411/412) final drive/diff section (almost same as later T3, output stubs differ, possibly R&P choices differ)

Very annoyingly, the output/pinion shaft seal going into the diff from the automatic trans can is not shown that I can see.
That's one critical seal that keeps ATF out of the hypoid gear oil and vice-versa.

5-18 item#4 is also a pinion shaft seal, looks like it that isolates the ATF going to the converter from the diff,
I suspect the one behind the tq converter seal is the main ATF leaking>diff killing culprit as its probably under pressure, not just splashed ATF like the one at the input to the diff.

In my mind (not having done this yet, calling Ray???) need to replace both, so the diff must come out of the outer housing.

ATF in the diff is fatal for the diff.(kills ring and pinion as well as the bearings which get trashed by the wear junk from the dying R&P)

[Piledriver]

Found something delightful re: T3 vs T4 flex plates...
I have a perfect T1 flex plate, and a torn up T4 flex plate, but the t4s crank hub is savable, just light surface rust.

The hubs that actually bolt to the crank are riveted onto the flex plates with 10 solid rivets.
The flex plates themselves are identical, and the hubs appear to be a press fit into the plate.

Unless someone wants to swap a good T4 flex plate for a good std T3 version I'll be grinding/popping out the rivets and doing some TIG welding.once I refinish the T4 hub.

I bet those hubs are forged...
I wonder if it could fit the old Crown aluminum flywheel I was going to turn into a clock?

[Piledriver]

For reference, the t3 auto width stub to stub is 10", nominal.
Drivers side is 4", passenger side is 6" from centerline. (this measured with a builder square so +/- ~1/8")

The 003 input shaft and output shaft are fully coaxial/on centerline, its the diff/output stubs that's offset.

For comparison, an 091 Bus trans is 11" flange to flange (nominal) and a T1/T3 manual must be very close to that, maybe 1/4" less, I have stuffed a 091 in a t1 with std axles with no apparent issues, although they make slightly shorter axles specifically for that swap.

If I keep the pass weld on flange to ~3/8", you could offset the trans about an inch, and make the width ~11" with the drivers side flange addition, and use std manual axles. (In my case, Vanagon manual axles, due to 944T rear arms)

(an 091 bus trans input shaft/bell housing is offset ~19mm to the right of centerline, so it may end up very close to same, just in opposite direction)

I have an early 003 with the 5 bolt flanges that hold the drive stubs in place.
To convert that setup to T4 flanges will require replacing the studs and nuts with flat head/countersunk M6 machine screws, countersink the flanges to match, and welding on flanges that stick out some, with a notch for screw access.

I assume all T4 versions (1970+) of the 003 had the later stub/case style, similar to a Porsche 901, held in place with long bolts through the center into the diff side gears.

[raygreenwood]

Nice thread! Yes...now that you point out #4...the pinion seal....it makes sense that its in the diagram...but my mind was ignoring it because it looks like a washer!

The other "diff" killer...is the governor shaft seal. Note that the governor has a fluid port that keeps it filled with ATF....and a drive shaft off the pinion shaft. If that seal fails...it fills the Diff with ATF and death ensues. Ray

[Piledriver]

EDIT: USING D4 ATF DOES NOT WORK DESPITE THE ALLEGED GL4 RATING.

...As a fine example of something
GOWESTY WILL NOT WARANTEE THEIR REBUILT AUTOMATICS IF YOU USE D4 ATF AT ALL.(even as ATF)

Removed original comment so it can't steer anyone wrong.

Dexron 6 is viable, as it is backwards compatible to all earlier versions.
It's a bit thinner, better bite for the frictions.

[Piledriver]

here's a pic of the harder to get at rear pinion seal, the ring/diff & pinion must be removed, but as long as you mark everything as to where it goes and orientation it comes apart and goes back together quite easily/quickly,

The outer race ID of the bearing is much larger than the seal OD, so its an easy out/in on the seal, which goes lip towards the tq converter and only flush. The identical front pinion seal is the one you can see where the pinion shaft goes into the diff assy, it goes lip IN, as its not really trying to stop the return ATF from the tq converter as the rear seal is.

There exist dual lip seals for this application, considered going there but the Transstar seal set from Cobra Transmission had the Timken single lips, so I'll run them.

Here's the pinions view of the rear pinion seal:

pinion-seal-rear.jpg

The Cobra master kit also contained Attomatic steels and frictions, the green frictions were identified as Raybestos "High Energy" semi-metallic friction material. Attomatic is a division of Raybestos.

My friction band supplier recommended NOT to replace the new friction linings as it was what they would have recommended to put on it, but the bands are now Carbon Metallic.

[Piledriver]

So, after about 25-30 kmiles, despite my best efforts, atf got into the diff and killed the R&P.

Currently prepping aVanagon 090 trans for installation, (it is, in fact, the same length as a 003) which has proven to be more of a pita than expected, simply as noone sells all the parts you need, or at least has a complete list/kit of them to replace ALL the required seals to keep the atf and gear oil separated, short of buying a complete $180 seal kit... and even then you may be a seal or two short.
(will do a failure analysis on the 003 at some point)

in any case, I compiled a list of all the required parts from many sources.
cad.timken.com is invaluable for checking dimensions/seal type vs part#.


The diff section extra kit for 090 differential from Cobra transmissions has a pinion bearin (the small one at pinion gear end inside) an output shaft seal, the big oring for the 5 bolt flange, a tq converter seal and the seal for the governor.
.., but missing a few things you will need to do the full job...
I'm trying them to put together a complete 090 diff service kit, not just the random diff pieces that aren't in the full kits that covers the 087/089/090.
(missing paper gaskets, big oring, axle seals/orings, 2 large pinion seals for flange, small oring for same, possibly more, have not used it yet, I dangerously assume those other parts are in main rebuild kit.)
##############################
Vanagon automatic (090) differential reseal service kit compilation
Most if not all the shaft seals cross to std parts store seals, have not cross referenced all of them.
Consider this a shopping list as not everyone has all of these, or everything at a reasonable price.

large paper gaskets (go in trans can, always replace)
2 required, ~$3 each. Gowesty will merrily sell you a pair of these and a few other gaskets for $50+...
I bought 10 of them from a Porsche dealer for $2.37 each.(early 924 has an 010 based trans)
010 409 549B

Pinion gear end pinion seal 010-409-085d/e timken
national 223010 (this is polyacrylate seal, not nbr, higher temp, ep oil ok)
original style in nbr national ...

lip toward tq converter, pinion must come out, inside rear pinion bearing race near tq converter seal... the job is actually ~trivial if you mark both adjusters for rotation and depth--the thread pitch is pretty coarse--- with depth and rotation marked, you really cannot miss.

large pinion shaft seals, 5 bolt input flange. pinion shaft into differential,
2 required, seals must mount back to back, (lips to front and back).
089409529D National 239146 (watch for "substitutes", I just got 2 10 for $10 TTO tc style mystery seals in national 239146 boxes from my favorite FLAPS, national chain)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BEST: :2X SKF 14710, polyacrylate. 38x54x7 order from a stocking skf distributor or amazon. I got them through home depot in 3 days, free ship to store, These are the only correct seals for the face to face design, as the are the ONLY seals I have ever seen with raised bumps to allow any oil that gets by either side to reach the drain between the seals that goes out the bottom of the diff casing... to work properly. ~all other seal designs seal this path off installed face to face.

big oring for pinion shaft input flange/cover
1 required
010409259A
tiny oring for cover oil return #009 (5.8 x 9.6 x 1.9mm)

torque converter seal (use two)
2 desired
003-519-089D (or national 3051N)

CV output shaft seals
2 of each, does both sides 011519345 224520
orings for big pinion adjuster side nuts/cvseal holders
axle seal 018 409 399

big oring trans can to differential buna-n $2.69 each from industrial oring supplier.
200mm id x 3.5mm, 010 409 549B

governer shaft seal
003507125A VW or timken 221040
2 needed, easy to destroy,buy two, use one. lip out towards governor.
governor cover oring 003325381

differential oil pan seal 090-507-215

******************************
Below is if your shifter/throttle shaft seals leak

automatic ATF pan seal 010 321 371A

vancafe offers a "automatic trams service kit" that gas a new 010 atf pan gasket,
new ATF filter and required paper gasket for 10 bucks...
010 398 009

coaxial shaft,shifter and throttle shaft orings
(in 010 can, iirc valve body must come out))
0282012n
010 321 182

[Clatter]

Wow.
Great work here, Pile.

I don't have an auto or anything,
but if I did,
This is really some fine work sleuthing and documenting what it takes.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I hope you don't mind but I cleaned up the photo so I could see detail better.

pinion-seal-rear copy.jpg

Lee

[Slow 1200]

I have pretty much settled on using Redline D4 or D6 for ATF...
D4 is Dexron III ATF with a GL-4 rating as well, D6 is Dex VI + GL-4.

Then if it leaks D4 or D6 into the diff, its leaking a gl-4 rated gear oil into the gl-4 gear oil.

I asked Redline if you could just use D4 in the diff but they said that their MT-90 is the recommended gl-4 gear oil. I suspect the hypoid gears are better off with std gear oil.

I'd prefer to run same in both and set up the diff to properly recirculate but that's asking too much.
Could probably be achieved by leaving out the behind tq converter pinion seal and drilling a hole at the right oil level.

So the r&p died despite using D4 ATF? that's a bummer

[Piledriver]

Gowesty refuses to warrantee their rebuilt autos if you use it at all.

I should probably edit the suggestion.

I do have a couple kilos of WS2 I may mix a bit with the gear oil this time out.
IIRC the military now adds it to helo gearboxes to provide a much needed few extra minutes of operation if the rotor gearbox gets ventilated by a 50 cal...

I still have not managed to stick the 090 in the square, the oil cooler ports and vanagon mounts push the trans/engine back too far.
Need to fab something...

[Slow 1200]

I've seen some "EP rated" (no GL rating tho) hydraulic fluids, note these are not ATF, so I wonder how much they can be used in an automatic gearbox without ill effects, their viscosities seem very similar, might be worth checking, maybe with the tractor crowd

EDIT: Actually I found a tractor fluid that is GL4 rated,