Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:43 pm

Marc, question. I was talking to Doug at Bow Wow about the steering and other things and we got talking about the idea of leaving the tiny springs out of the stack, both the top and bottom. He expressed concerns about the small amount of grip in the center and trailing arms on the stack. Do you see that as a worry?

If so then it is back to nicking those small springs the installing them into the adjusters as they are welded in. Do you think that the ends of the short pieces of the spring stack the should be wire tied or not. Obsessive thinking but this is bothering me for some reason.

Heading back to get a rag-joint so I can get fussing around with the steering again. I hate rotating the steering box even for off-road but it was getting out of control $$$ wise.

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:25 pm

I suggest that instead of cutting torsion leaves, that you simply adjust the upper and lower stacks to a different rotation. By simply rotating the upper stack to a lesser angle than the lower, you get less "preload" total. This might mean leaving the bottom at stock and rotating the upper down. And with a link pin beam it could really be upper or lower that is set softer. Ball joints get more persnickety because of pulling or pushing on the balls and sockets. Pulling the balls is not so good. They are more likely to fail that way than if the ball is pushed into the socket.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:36 pm

Thanks Dusty. I did what you suggested on the blue buggy but at the same time I had added the homemade body lift (amazing difference in that alone), the beam with adjusters with the top stack adjusted all the way up so that almost all of the work was done by the lower stack until a longer than stock suspension travel came up then the tops stack went in to full work mode, and I added the Bilstein 6000 series shocks were added (the 6000 had now been replaced with the 7000 series which I understand are an upgrade.

I have about 1 1/3 to a 1/2 mile of pavement to travel before a dune access (actually there is one closer but it is dangerous to use now days) and the ride on the Razorbacks and now using Desert Tracs is smooth. On the dunes, especially where the whoops at, the no-see-ums and a couple of other types of holes like where someone gets stuck and had to did out then the ride gets rougher. It is hard to tell if it is suspension, shocks or just what. The blue buggy, like the black buggy I am building has the fuel tank in the rear. The wheel base is shorter that stock so I am sitting about as far to the rear as possible. The black buggy is a stock ~95" wheel base and my large rump will sit lower but close to the center of the wheel base and the fuel tank will be mounted towards the rear so not too much weight on the front end again.

I don't want to over kill this and go to far in either suspension direction... sort of a "Catch 22".

Options as I currently see them:

Leave the front suspension stock.

Adjuster in the top only.

Adjuster in the top only and remove the small springs.

Adjuster in the top and bottom.

Adjuster in the top and bottom but remove the small springs in the top.

Adjusters in the top and bottom but remove the small spring top and bottom.

The removal of the springs might be more of "nicking the springs" with a cut-off tool so that they install OK but they soon fracture and cease to work
suspension wise.

I'm also back to farting around with the steering with gobs of options there. I will try to post pix later on.

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Leatherneck » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:06 am

One option you left out was to go to coil overs and quite farting around with torsions. BOOM!

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:47 am

Thanks Leather: I've already looked into that and it wasn't pretty either.

The steering components I was going to try to use got to be heading easily over $500 and wasn't solving the problem. Being BJ beam there was a problem with usable coil-overs based on what information I was getting (incomplete at the time I gave up on that too as it too was getting expensive). Now the steering has become somewhat a problem.

I guess I could convert to IFS but the cost is still going to be prohibitive (fixed income) and will I have gained any travel? (I am now looking into where the fender [wings] braces are going to have to be placed as this body is "S-glass" and the build up is thin. The same for the running boards but I think tree bars might be part of the answer)

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/download/ ... w&id=18990

This shows the steering in the stock location using a rag joint... there is a problem with the location and the body,
IMG_0795.JPG
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/download/ ... w&id=18990

It isn't real clear here but the input shaft to the steering box is pointed at the corner of the buggy body. Not where I want it to come through.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/download/ ... w&id=18990

It would be coming through just where the clutch pedal is rather then in-between them so I have to do something else; use the universal and angle it some which brings other problems.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/download/ ... w&id=18990

The rag joint I have been told has to remain straight, it is not a universal so back to this. In the pix the steering shaft adapter is facing the wrong direction :oops: but you should be able to get an idea of where this is going. It would allow some angle to be added but that brings in other problems. This requires welding way above my skill level but it could be done. I would also have to shorten the worm gear shaft to make all this fit. Shortening then machining the worm gear shaft to accommodate a 36 spline situation was off the wall dollar wise.

The adapter shaft and the hole in the adapter were just enough different that it would have been hard to keep it straight so I cut some thin "tin" I had to length then formed it around the adapter shaft then drove it into the adapter. I still have to finish off the ends and cut the "wings"/flanges off the adapter but when done it should allow a pretty centered shaft for welding with some plug welds added to ensure the two metals to join safely.

Another option presented to me was to slide the steering box over to where I need it then lengthen and shorten the tie-rods. Originally I was afraid that the angle of the steering shaft was going to be pointed up too high but looking at it again it isn't as bad as it originally looked.

In the "old days" (to me that is WWII era) the car manufactures centered the steering to the driver's seat but with the invent of some of the larger-wider "V" engines this became a problem so they moved the steering a bit worrying that the buyers would complain but no one seemed to notice that much so that is about where I am somewhat.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Piledriver » Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:44 pm

You can't simply ditch the rag joint?
(I'm pretty sure you don't plan on using a Urethane one, they are unsafe)
What about the early Super Beetle u-joint? OK, wrong size. (as-is)

Grinding a nice flat or two on the input shaft to the box opens up a world of options.

Also, Didget69 posted a simple viable DIY "adapter" in this thread (related) https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... w=previous it simply replaced the rag joint with a welded setup to use the SB bits...
Other options are also supplied.

With 2 ujoints put the steering wheel ~anywhere you'd like, and by adapting another column, many tilt and telescoping setups are available cheap, off the "shelf" (JY at least)
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:36 pm

If the urethane rag joint is unsafe then I was given bad info! I see them a lot so I was not concerned.

I still need to move the steering box as the steering wormgear shaft points directly at the bend/corner in the FG firewall and at the clutch pedal. There is less than 12" between the back side of the beam and the firewall (I mentioned years ago that I don't think the guy who I bought the body from [the builder] assembled the three pieces of the body on a jig. Also, a lot of the pieces either did not fit [shape;egg., the Napoleons' hat] or warped in the mold or afterwards) so the universal would be a tight turn since the steering box and wormgear shaft take a lot of it (I just went out and measured and there is ~9 1/8" from the end of the worm gear shaft and the offset to miss the pedal assay is ~2 1/2". Then I still would have to deal with the potential of contact with my #10 Brogans (shoes) and the steering shaft. By the time I figured it out it was too late; the owner of the business had gone out of business (I heard the wife had emptied the account(s) and headed for the hills . when I gotta hold of him he was on line selling off the last of his molds).

I looked at the join in the URL you posted and it looks interesting but I still need to think about it. I don't buy on line anymore after I got my credit card compromised.

Thanks guys for posting ideas. Don't be afraid of posting ideas. I consider each and every one of them... more than once too.

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Piledriver » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:45 pm

There are several safe online purchase options.

Paypal or Amazon, several others, the seller never gets account info beyond your shipping address.
Note that Paypal is now legally a "bank" and is subject to all the rules that go with it... before that happened they could do anything they liked.

There are other safe methods, many banks etc can issue one-time use virtual "credit cards" etc that are only good for that single transaction..
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:06 pm

Piledriver wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:45 pm
There are several safe online purchase options.

Paypal or Amazon, several others, the seller never gets account info beyond your shipping address.
Note that Paypal is now legally a "bank" and is subject to all the rules that go with it... before that happened they could do anything they liked.

There are other safe methods, many banks etc can issue one-time use virtual "credit cards" etc that are only good for that single transaction..
Interesting! Never knew that.

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Piledriver » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:05 am

My credit union does the one time use stuff, so many a month free... Have never tried it.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Leatherneck » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:38 am

Lee, don't worry about where stuff used to go, put it where you want it, where it is comfortable and works right, where there is a will there is a way.

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:48 am

Moving the steering box to the right has issues in a car with the stock pan head. The pitman arm will hit the pan head before arriving at a normal left steering lock.

But if the column pierces the fiberglass in the corner of the lower body bulkhead, it can be pierced with a thin wall column tube sealed with resin or caulk.

And where there is a will, there are attorneys!

But Leather has a point, sometimes the biggest walls in our path are of our own fabrication.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:17 pm

dustymojave wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:48 am
Moving the steering box to the right has issues in a car with the stock pan head. The pitman arm will hit the pan head before arriving at a normal left steering lock.

But if the column pierces the fiberglass in the corner of the lower body bulkhead, it can be pierced with a thin wall column tube sealed with resin or caulk.

And where there is a will, there are attorneys!

But Leather has a point, sometimes the biggest walls in our path are of our own fabrication.
"The pitman arm will hit the pan head before arriving at a normal left steering lock. The pitman arm will hit the pan head before arriving at a normal left steering lock."

This is something I have not been able to check out yet which I will try to do later on today. Since I have the tie-rods attached it should be fairly easy to do. I was going to rotate the angle of the steering column down as I thought it was going to be a problem but it isn't. I will have to check to see what happens when it is tipped up.

"But if the column pierces the fiberglass in the corner of the lower body bulkhead, it can be pierced with a thin wall column tube sealed with resin or caulk."

But the clutch pedal is still in the way. One of the "bads'" of doing the hydraulic clutch conversion the way I did it. It is something I would not recommend to anyone else especially with no hood on the body like mine is ("But Leather has a point, sometimes the biggest walls in our path are of our own fabrication.") . Along with good advice I got some bad advice too which is why now that I know a bit more about VWs (and that 'taint much either) I take time to play with an idea before having at it.

I just got in from doing yard work (the grass when we got home ranged from about 4" to over a foot high and this was the second mowing. The Seattle area has already had its annual rain fall for the year and is well past that) and beat the next weather front by less than 15 minutes. At least another week of this.

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:28 pm

Right now it is looking like I am going to try to move the steering box over a bit which brings up a couple of questions.
IMG_0803 (2).JPG
This is the lower back side of the beam that shows the two pieces that locate and index the steering box.
IMG_0803 (2).JPG
This is kind of what I plan on doing. I am not sure if I can drill out and save the one piece but maybe I can make two of them to locate the steering about 2" (or so) over. I can't measure them right now as coming in when the storm both my wife and I got stuff blown in our eyes (yes, I was wearing shaded wraparound safety glasses. It was just a freak thing as I took them off just as I was entering the darker interior of the garage) so I think I may have scratched a cornea... which I have done before. Luckily it is my bad eye.

The two things in question:

Is it OK to modify the beam mount some to clear the tie-rods if needed.

On the Pittman arm: if I was going to move the steering box for center steering I would have to modify the part (eye) of the Pittman arm that the driver's side tie-rod would use. I think it has to be moved level with the other eye. With just ~2" of movement would I have to modify the Pittman arm?

Lee
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Leatherneck » Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:10 pm

Lee I wouldn't worry about removing and repositioning that piece, grind it out of your way unless removing it by other means is easier. As far as modifying your beam, how are you going to modify it? Knowing you I am sure you have put tremendous thought and calculatorns to it. My Pit,an arm was ar the wrong angle so I cut it off and put it where it worked. Not pretty but it has hung with me for years now.

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