Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:52 pm

Luckily I haven't had anything explode on me (at least that I remember but those blank areas of the past... :twisted: ) but I have had my share of cuts, bruises, numb spots plus I have some weird looking places on my hands and fingers :oops: :lol: . I kind of posted it as a warning to the new crop of guys and gals just getting into this kind of sport.

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Aug 08, 2018 4:53 pm

It looks like 4 more weeks of light duty lifting and moving things around and 9 mos. more to fully heal up.

I think I will have to do the fuel tank mounts in the second of two steps:

1) using the old rotisserie mount do what it takes to mount the spreader bar and box the shock towers while the pan is on the rotisserie and that means the trans and suspension will be removed. The good is it will allow me to finish the seat mounts, put the body on to check things out such as seat to body clearance in the full forward position. I can also put the turning brake mount in place to double check that. Then I can pull the body back off and...

2) put the pan back on the stands then put the body back on to make the fuel tank mounts. It is the flanges on the motor mount that I want to use that are causing the ruckus. The reason I am not happy with the pan being on the stands that all the work will have to be done low to the ground rather than at a closer to eye level when on the rotisserie hence below. I'll build the mounts then take the body back off to finish the welds and add ay necessary bracing.

There may (with "MAY" being the operating word here) be another way (think maybe a "squirted" "C" or "U"-channel" depending. I think that either might work but just not sure of it until I can get down on my prayer bones to make some additional measurements then making decisions on the changing for rear rotisserie mounting bracket to be hooked up indirectly to the pan. The engine/transaxle mount needs to be there and it is the "in the way problem" with mounting and using the rotisserie.

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:43 pm

:oops: Silly me, I may already have something I can modify ! :oops: :lol: (hint: scrap 1/4" rectangular steel tube)

http://sheetmetal.me/air-bend-force-chart/

For what it is worth a chart of minimum bend radiuses and stiffening flange lengths.

https://www.brighthubengineering.com/ma ... sign-tips/

Reliefs for bending flanges. Something I showed when making the new stand for my vertical/horizontal bandsaw.

This is some of the stuff I did but in AL in my former working life.

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:58 pm

Still can't lift much weight and get very tired quickly but I have been doing things within the up graded limitations I am allowed.

I made a decision on how to go with the turning brakes and stated cutting metal this afternoon. I still have to make a pattern for the closeout piece for the old e-brake hole but that shouldn't take long to do. Cutting it out might take a bit more time then I have to weld it in and prep for paint and bed liner spray over it.

No pix as there isn't really much to see yet: just cut to tube to length and made a long relief cut on the underside for mounting access for the cylinders.

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:46 pm

I went out and took some "contemplating pictures" for reference so I didn't have to keep going out to the garage and dragging in dirt to my wife's freshly cleaned carpet so... I thought as long as I had them I would show them.
IMG_1280 copy.jpg
This is the mount, as it is, for the moment. Look closely and you can see the a relief in the bottom of the rectangular tube to match the way the turning brake cylinders were attached (last picture) to their bracket. The way I currently have it I have the option of different mounting locations also.
IMG_1282 copy.jpg
This is what you have seen before. A relief in front was spread in the tube to accommodate the handles and the pivots and to finish it will just require a couple of holes to be drilled. I will drill some mounting access holes in the top and smaller bolt holes in the bottom for the front mounting bolts. I will use nut-certs front and rear to mount the tube to the pan's tunnel.
IMG_1281 copy.jpg
This shows the rear of the tube and the bottom of the turning brake mount. I will mount the cylinders the same way as the assembly came. Again, access holes, bolt holes in the tube matching to nut-certs in the tunnel.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:39 pm

I went to the garage today to find out what my limitations were in the direction I am heading. Some pix of what I discovered.
IMG_1285 copy.jpg
IMG_1286 copy.jpg
The first thing I had to find out was where the shift rod went. I used tape to mark it's passage route through the tunnel.
IMG_1289 copy.jpg
The next thing was to mimic the old limbo dance line: "how low can you go". A bit less than 1 1/4"s would be the answer assuming there was a problem with locations.
IMG_1288 copy.jpg
You can see the tape and the rectangular tube centered on it. Notice that things are off-set slightly to the driver's side which I need to look into more as the driver's seat is off-set to the center in order to keep the seat's upholstery from wearing on the side of the body in the full forward position.
IMG_1290 copy.jpg
This shows how close to the bend in the tunnel's flat area that the rectangular tube is. Since I am using insert style of nuts that isn't a problem but I may have to shave a side off a washer or two.


The next question was is the relief for the handles going to be far enough back to allow full travel of the handles at full plunge of the cylinders (if that comes up in reality then the car's braking system needs to be looked at).
IMG_1291 copy.jpg
IMG_1292 copy.jpg
Travel of the rod seems to be 1" so it will depend on just where I locate the pivot/mounting point for the handles.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:45 pm

More tedious pictures. I am trying to figure out where to mount the turning brake handles relative to the shifter and the flat part of the tunnel.
IMG_1293 copy.jpg
This shows where I have the setup now. The shifter is in 4th gear so to get finger room I would have to shorten the handles which, while am not "want" to do it is a viable option.
IMG_1294 copy.jpg
This shows the how the pivot point would be if I did not shorten the handles and moved them back. The tape shows the location of the pivot point.
IMG_1295 copy.jpg
This shows the location as I am planning it and the moved pivot point.
IMG_1296 copy.jpg
This shows the way the tube is cut now but moved back to the tape line. In order to use the pivot point where the take is would require re-cutting the opening and re-spreading the tube to accommodate the handle assy.
IMG_1301 copy.jpg
This is how I did the original spreading using parts from the clamping system I use on my lathe and drill press. Moving the join on the steps changes length and width.
IMG_1298 copy.jpg
This is the insert style of fastener kit I will be using. Originally I wanted two fasteners at each end more of less side by side but I think I can get by with one larger fastener but using a wide doubler to spread the loading width wise.

Lee

Everything is still subject to change.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:11 pm

Between being hot, muggy, smoky and tired so I had to quit for the day but I may have figured out a way to put the pan back up on the rotisserie and still have the trans mount involved.
IMG_1303 copy.jpg
This is the piece I started cutting out today. I pulled the old motor mount off then blasted both of them so I could trace and see my marks for cutting. After the tracing I then measured the inside surfaces then corrected the lines I had traced.
IMG_1302 copy.jpg
(Again, this is unfinished and is a rough cut)

The inner holes are for the trans mount bolt locations I am using now. The outer ones must be for a different pan than I have but they are going to be useful. The flange on the bottom is a limiter to use the engine mounts that I used before but opening up the outer surface hole to allow a socket wrench in, I can then mount the bracket to the engine mount using the same hole and not having to get another pair of bolts.

The outer hole will be the ones that attach to the arms of the modified engine stand. I may have to do some corrections to do this but... maybe not either... we'll see when I am done and can lift the head of the modified engine mount alone (I have a weight lift limitation for the surgery I had done).

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:04 pm

Still working on making the rotisserie usable with the solid motor mount in place. Got the adapter I am making deburred and corner reliefs added then blued to double check the holes that I am going to use for the rotisserie mount.

I got the rotisserie head out of the shed along with a lot of falling stuff and put it against the mount tp see of the holes at each end of the head are usable and... two things.
IMG_1305 copy.jpg
The ends of the engine stand I modified just work with minimal gap and no contact. Whoof!

The other problem was the length of spread of the mounts. they are too short to mount like I wanted them to but do fit... kind. With max spread and angle the center of the hub or the stand and the input shaft of the trans are off about half of the distance of the hub itself. I won't know if that is good or bad until I mount the other end hub up and try to rotate the pan... that is after leveling out the pan on the rotisserie.

It is looking like the adapter won't be needed now.
IMG_1306 copy.jpg
This is the distance the input shaft comes to the rotisserie albeit the trans won't be in place when things are mounted. Neither will be the trailing arms and their accoutrements such as brakes and plumbing.
IMG_1304 copy.jpg
This is how the head is sitting right now.

Lee
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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:32 pm

Ol'fogasaurus wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:11 pm
Between being hot, muggy, smoky and tired so I had to quit for the day but I may have figured out a way to put the pan back up on the rotisserie and still have the trans mount involved.

IMG_1303 copy.jpg

This is the piece I started cutting out today. I pulled the old motor mount off then blasted both of them so I could trace and see my marks for cutting. After the tracing I then measured the inside surfaces then corrected the lines I had traced.

IMG_1302 copy.jpg

(Again, this is unfinished and is a rough cut)

The inner holes are for the trans mount bolt locations I am using now. The outer ones must be for a different pan than I have but they are going to be useful. The flange on the bottom is a limiter to use the engine mounts that I used before but opening up the outer surface hole to allow a socket wrench in, I can then mount the bracket to the engine mount using the same hole and not having to get another pair of bolts.

The outer hole will be the ones that attach to the arms of the modified engine stand. I may have to do some corrections to do this but... maybe not either... we'll see when I am done and can lift the head of the modified engine mount alone (I have a weight lift limitation for the surgery I had done).

Lee
The outboard holes are for a rear bumper cage. You would weld a 3/4" nut inside the end of the bumper lower tubes and put a bolt through from the front into the nut in the tube. Those are WAY high and the bumper cage would not protect the bottom of the engine case.

Regarding weight lift limits: you DO have an engine hoist, don't you? I DO understand you limitations after surgery. My surgery a couple of years ago was robotic. 6 separate tools were inserted into separate holes in my belly and the doctor worked on me from a computer console across the room. After it was over, I looked like I lost a fight with a machine gun. 6 holes varying from 1/2" to 2". I started off with a walker. I had to sit on the sidelines and watch the guys do the Elko to Bodie adventure a nearly 2 months later. I was able to walk around the ghost town that day I met up with them at Bodie. Then slept near 12 hours that night. It takes a while to be back to normal. And that was with me about 12 years younger than you are now. Like I said before - It takes a long time for it to heal up all the way.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills!, but then...So does OLD AGE!!
A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech Inspection
MDR / MORE / Glen Helen BajaCup Challenge
AKA: MojaveRacer208
'58 Baja with 815K Miles and counting

Ol'fogasaurus
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Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:35 pm

Yes, I do have a lift but it is a part and each section weighs more than the 25#s I am allowed to lift for the next 2 1/2 weeks. I had a hernia operation that ended up being more than anyone had thought. The inserted a mesh in that goes from the bottom of my "groan" to my kidney on the right side. There is still swelling but the bruising is pretty much gone. In 2 1/2 more weeks I will be allowed to do more lifting and related things.

I appreciate the knowing what that hole is for. Right now I am using them for the bolts on the rotisserie pivot but the idea of using them for the cage may or may not work as I am planning on using the outboard ends of the the bracket for the uprights for the fuel tank. I need to get that located before any other decisions can be made. I am pretty sure that what you said about the bottom of the engine cage using those holes is right.

Down at the dunes right now.

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:27 pm

Got talking to one of the old times here about truss bars and what I am planning on doing on the black buggy and once he understood he told me that what I was doing is what used to be done other than they used two by three rectangular tube (I'm using one by four with an eight inch wall). Made me feel good that I was not going up a dark alley the way I was headed.

Lee

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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:44 pm

Honestly Lee, I've seen a LOT of buggies of various types with gas tanks like yours with tank supports of 1" OD round tube of unknown wall thickness that have gone many years with no troubles. Can't say I've ever seen one that had failed.

Those holes you're using for the rotisserie mounts could still be used for bumper cage mounts, but the main bottom bumper tubes should be spaced down to below the engine. That could be done by using a short piece of tube with nut to attach to the motor mount with a 3/4" bolt, then a piece of 1.5" tube welded to that and going straight down, or angled down at least far enough to be even with the bottom of the case. Then a horizontal main tube extending back welded to the bottom end of that vertical square tube. That vertical would require a couple of fishmouths to do. Still pretty EZ.

I like to put a 45° bend in my bottom bumper cage tubes starting even with the back edge of the engine case to reduce the tail dragging, in sand or in hard desert. I then put another 45°, or whatever the angle works out to be, to make the back face of the bumper. It's REAL popular with sand dune folks to make the bend a 90° behind the headers. What a drag, man!
256_8972.JPG
That Bug had a Hobrecht bumper cage with a 90° bend for decades. That style is now sold by EMPI. It's what my dad chose back in the mid 70s. So the back end of the bottom bars were forever scraped and the car got hung up on them a time or 3. The 45° bend eliminates about 14-16" of drag.
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Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills!, but then...So does OLD AGE!!
A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech Inspection
MDR / MORE / Glen Helen BajaCup Challenge
AKA: MojaveRacer208
'58 Baja with 815K Miles and counting

Ol'fogasaurus
Posts: 13955
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:17 am
Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:50 pm

scan0002_zps67913d45[1].jpg
This is my buggy when I was putting a V6 in it. I had made the cage and engine cover for a stock VW engine then lengthened it for the V6, I still have the assy in the shed and might be able to modify it back or, I still have the bending wheel that I used when heat bending the 1" square tubing back years ago and can start over using the old one as a pattern. The paper was on the frame to check things and how it would look.

I have to get the pan back up on the rotisserie to do the locating and welding then I can put the body back on and locate the fuel tank. Not sure what I am going to use yet, it depends on distances and how far apart I can spread the brackets.

Down at the dunes right now. Can't lift more than 25 lbs. or the equivalent when pushing or pulling. for a couple more weeks so this is a having my wife's relatives' visit us week but nothing limiting me to what I can think and plan though.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:53 pm

Might have an idea to help with me with the mockup of my roll cage and down bar in order to help me set the angle of the "spreader bar" (gasp, take a deep breath after that sentence).

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ho ... ORM=WRVORC

Ooooh Ahhhh

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ho ... ORM=VDRVRV

OOOOO AHHH!!

Lee

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