Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:47 am

Thanks Herb, I don't remember seeing that before, good heads up (I looked it up: Jeff Hibbard's book "Baja Bugs & Buggies. The section titled "Rear-suspension Bracing" starts on page 75 and continues on to page 76 where it also talks about the skid plate, which also figures into the mix on supporting the rear torsion bar support.

Since my body lift is removable (intentionally) I am going to have a disconnect feature in the torsion tube support in that part of the build. It is (and still is) my intention to add the cages rear hoop's down bars to the body lift (dis-connectable) so attaching the torsion tube to the body lift should transmit a lot of the loading there. The alignment between the down bars and the torsion tube supports isn't going to be exact which is why the wording "should transmit a lot of" was used.

Your points on the connection of the Truss/Kaffer bar to the cage when using a VW pan w/body are well taken. Thanks Herb!

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:10 pm

Been down with a bad cold that I think I got off a grocery cart the other day. I did get the Christmas light connected between rain showers, luckily the wife wanted to set them up a week ago on one of the warm sunny days between rain storms so it only took a few minutes to do.
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I did stop in the garage for a few minutes and played around with the torsion tube to pan connection and I think this is how I am going to handle it. The bolt you see is a bit longer than will be there but it was used as part of the mix in determining where to put the connection. The angle finder will be used to figure out the cuts for the material I decide to use. I used calipers to see what the dia. of the torsion tube was and it is (roughly) ~2 1/2".

I chose this location for several reasons. The main one is the location of the bolt in the body lift will be required for additional load control. The other reason was welding the pieces to the torsion tube and the body lift when it was so close to the end of the torsion tube. I think I know the design I will use for the connections but not sure of how many bolts will be needed yet for the connection; 1 or 2.

On a rail the end of the torsion tube is welded to the main tubes on the side of the frame so there would be no problem but since I am using pretty much stock VW IRS suspension there is a problem... at least in my mind anyway. With the Truss tube assembly I bought, and most somewhat copy they anchor to the shock bolts there is could be a lot of that could be applied to them. If, lets say, I land hard enough to have the mount arms bottom out; the loads from the Truss bar goes directly into the shock bolts.

The other bad thing in my mind is the whole torsion tube assembly is going to want to rotate as one piece with the truss bar being used. The connection to the pan's tunnel and that dinky hook on the end is all there is, with a stock suspension, for support on the rotation. My idea is to give some support to keep the tube from rotating and destroying things.

VGAJames's idea of attaching to the pan isn't a bad idea as long as it is properly supported by doublers or a connection to the down bars on the cage but then I don't have a steel body to use.

I am still debating on the 1 X 3 or using the 1 X 2 with the 1 X 2 being a thicker material. I think that even things out so do I need the extra inch of length or not.

This is where I currently am on this.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:23 pm

I'm going into more detail on this as I think it might be of some help to others on the what's and whys.
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I cut a length of 1 X 2 rectangular tube to use as a model. I leveled it out which these photos show. The over lap at this location was about 3/8s of an inch. As you move outboard then the overlap was more.
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This shows the ~2 1/2" arc that would be cut on both sides of the 1 X 2 tube. It could be deeper to lower the piece a bit but then you minimize the size of the brackets that would connect it to the body lift. I made a mark showing how much to shorten it but I would not cut it that deep until I had more information on the brackets and where the bolts would sit (this is the "why" for the documentation). I am not sure I could deal with only one through bolt to join the assembly together but on the other hand if I made 2 non-through bolts per side I would have to make some nut plates which is another fun project :roll: :lol: .

Another option would be to lay it over enough to be vertical with the top of the body lift but that puts different loads on the brackets that I am not sure I want. The pattern I made of the cut would just have to sit higher on one side than the other to set up the tip.

Added dialogue: In playing with the rectangular tubing I noticed that the seam of the two ends of the tube, when welded together, in this case (the 1 X 2) is in the middle of the 1" wide leg. I have seen the seam in the past working with 1 X 3s to be in the center of the long leg (the 3" leg) or at about the 2/3rds area of the long leg. I bought a couple of 1 X 3s at the same time where the seams were located differently on each "stick". I asked the guy in the salvage yard about it and he said it seemed to be unique to each different supplier of the tube. I don't know the actual reason but the location of the seam might make a difference on how the tube is used.

On doing a search I couldn't find any information on seam locations (did find a bit on roll forming of tube and roll forming of the join) but I did find this which might be help for someone:

http://www.tpub.com/steelworker2/22.htm


This is my opinions only within a sick (cold) head :oops: (ahhhh choo!)

Lee

Edited to delete some dialogue that sounded a bit self-serving and added some other dialogue that might help someone.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:55 pm

Since it looks like I am back fighting that flu thing I caught 2+ mos. ago I am not playing with anything that is sharp, moves under power or .... I just never know when sneezing, coughing fits, chills or any of several other things as I don't know when any of those things is going to erupt. Get your flu shots if you haven't already... this is no fun!.
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Going through my scrap metal pile I found a length of this. Don't know where it came from, didn't even remember having it but it is a length of 2" X 3/16" flat stock. In Jeff Hibbard's book Baja Bug & Buggies he recommended using "... an 1/8-in thick steel plate 4-5-in long, weld the ends of the torsion tubes to the pan, just inside the existing brace." material to add some support to the outer torsion tube "hook" mount to pan for support of the torsion tube assembly. 3/16" is about as much as my 120vac MIG (I will bevel both sides of the arc then weld both sides. As usual, overkill but that is how I work) will do in one pass and should be more than enough for the additional support assuming I go with the flat stock. I do have a length of 1/8" stock but it sure looks wimpy to me and I am "want" to double it.
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I put the rusty piece in the blast cabinet but it wouldn't clean up by itself so I had to brave a cold garage and do it myself :? :lol: .

Not too badly scared so it is usable. The piece is long enough and even with the holes already in it looks like I can get three lengths out of it. I will go ahead and cut the rectangular tube to check fit on the torsion tube and see how much length I will have to remove from the mockup piece of tube to get the clearances I want and the length of the mounting brackets to the body lift.

I am still debating on the rectangular tube or the flat stock as there are advantages and disadvantages to both.

Lee
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:44 pm

002 - Copy.JPG
I stumbled onto this picture this morning; I took it a long time ago and it had gotten lost (so-to-speak). This is that hook that is located on the under side of the end casting for the torsion bar and mount to go into and is part of the shock tower; it connects to the pan. This is the piece that can be easily broken if not additionally supported properly for hard use.
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by bajaherbie » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:34 pm

No flu shots for me.

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:38 am

Sorry you feel that way Herb. If you had this you sure would wish you had taken the shot. I guess three weeks and up isn't unusual for this little beauty. I am off and on again since the middle of September; I think this is my third pass or second relapse at it. I guess it was pretty bad in Australia this past year.

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:00 pm

Feeling pretty good this am so I spent some time out in the garage making a trial piece for to support the torsion tube to the pan via. the body lift. I knew there would be some problems but did not expect some of them would be so bad. No one got hurt except an ego.
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The first thing I did was to get a backer board to make a jig from and thinck enough to protect the patten from the drill. This is one I had been using for drilling into for a couple of years so the reverse side is a holey thing but not enough to make it unusual.
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I used my combination square to draw out the outline of the tube/flat stock then grabbed a couple of short pieces of angle iron out of the scrap bin and proceeded to add some holes in one leg of each; this is when I first found out that this was going to be one of those "I'll fight you all the way" jobs. For some reason both of the pieces were hard to drill through bit, broke one when it hit some hard spots and then went to a larger dia. bit to finish it and drill the rest of the mounting holes.

I then marked the depth of the hole to be cut and not only traced the outline but the center hole of the hole saw so I could drill out the guide hole; a good idea assuming it had worked but more about that later.

I aligned each piece to the outlines I had drawn and used some old sheet rock screws to mount them to the jig base. I then cut the back ends flush.
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This shows the sacrificial piece in the jig.
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I then located the jig on the drill's platen using the guide hole as a centering base. I then clamped it in position (wrong!)
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I then mounted the piece of tube in place and once I clamped it there I hit the power, lubed the cut area and had at it... for about three seconds! Not only did the jig want to travel as the hole saw kept digging in but the drill bit that I had used to drill the centering hole was not long enough to hole things in place (more on that later too).
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... so, I clamped the jig in place like I didn't want to (or thought I didn't need to) and proceeded to finish the hole. The hole saw kept wanting to travel (I am not sure exactly how and why as everything was clamped in place so tightly ) but I finished off the cut as I figured it was a lost cause anyway and wanted to see what the fit was going to be.

[attachment=2]IMG_0946 copy.jpg[/attachment]

This shows the mess and how much it slid to the left and up a bit.

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This shows the guide hole and the new guide hole :oops:

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This is the fit and it is level. The top of the piece is almost perfectly in line with the top of the body lift at the same point in its downward trip. I did a quick check and duplicate mounting brackets can be used on both sides and still stay within the confines of the body lift.

I hope someone can learn as much from this fiasco as I did.

Lee
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bajaherbie
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by bajaherbie » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:18 pm

Not too bad..... good thing it isn't an airplane part!

I've been watching "Air Disasters" lately... tonight's show was a 1947 Grumann(sp?) Mallard seaplane in which the wing broke off. Lousy maintenance in regards to cracking of the skin was blamed. It mentioned using doublers and drilling out cracks to relieve the stress. Made me think of you and your attention to detail.

Cool show on the Smithsonian Channel anyway. My dad trained in PBY Catalina's (seaplane) while in WWII. Not sure if it is the exact same as the Mallard but pretty similar aircraft. He later flew on B-24 Liberators while he was in the Navy.

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:08 pm

The 2 seaplanes were very different with the Mallard being produced after WWII (I had to look the "Mallard" up as I had forgotten it's heritage/timeline). The PBYs were so famous and did so much very good work. They were very involved in the "sinking of the Bismarck" (did you know they recently found out that the Bismarck may have been sunk but "scuttled" at the same time to keep it from being captured? Makes perfect sense to me. this was from finding the Bismarck and looking at the remains).

The B-24s had the Davis wing which made the planes that other bombers did not to fly in formation with. If you see any film of them in formation, they are usually rising and falling much more than the rest of the formation. Very good bombers though. The B-17 was originally designed to a medium bomber design contract (it won out over the B-18 which as I remember. :wink: in the early '30s but was used as a "heavy" for most of the war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B- ... g_Fortress) hence it's smaller bomb load.

Thank you for the compliment. I try to help mainly since I have seen, and purchased, some very marginal stuff over the years. Some of it was so dangerous that it was unbelievably "hokey". I still am learning especially on the actually doing the actual building of parts. I don't mind showing my mistakes if someone learns from any "good stuff" as well as "bad stuff". I appreciate the advice also and I do consider it even it is reconsidering it. I have changed my mind several times in reconsidering especially if things I had not thought of were presented or I had found my way wasn't the best way, just a way.

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by bajaherbie » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:25 pm

My dad mentioned flying the coastlines of England and having the sensation of the air disappearing from the wings and rapid descents at times. Yikes. His squadron was loaded with depth charges and they looked for German submarines.

He said they drank a lot of whiskey while there!

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:41 pm

If you get a chance watch the movie "12 O'clock High"; its b/w but pretty good. It is about the B-17s stationed in England early in the war. Sink the Bismarck is another interesting one as it did deal with that "chase". Both are Historical Fiction Movies that give a fairly decent idea of how things were. Early in my carrier I did work with a lot of WWII pilots and other military people from the war. They were retired way too soon to get a lot of info from them. I wish I could have heard more stories but I had to work in order to keep my job :roll: :lol: .

Lee

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:43 pm

Got some time in the garage waiting for the garbage truck to come by so I decided to try to cut the 3/16" flat stock to shape. First of all I tried to find out why the off-set of holes on the rectangular tube cut. It turned out that the clamp on the drill press, while tight, wasn't tight enough and the platen moved a bit. I swung it back, reset the hole saw bit to the original hole then it took less than a half an inch of tightening of the handle to lock it in place.

I put the flat stock in the jig and clamped it in place using a hand clamp thinking that the fight I had yesterday would be lessened as there was not flat stock and vertical stock to deal with... wrong! I'll get to what I have learned in a second but what was happening is the flat stock end was moving out away from the longer wall of the jig as the cutter was rotating clock wise, the end of the stock was moving counterclockwise :oops: . I got the piece cut OK (well kinda) but the finished hole is a tad bigger than the second piece I made. It is almost a net fit but neither is a problem, just ego stuff!
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This shows what I ended up with for clamping which worked pretty well. I layed the first piece up just to show the difference as are the next two pictures.
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I have drilled holes in several different things using a hole saw but never have I made a notch in stock before. You wouldn't think so but the process is quite different. The leading edge of the saw wanted to hang up on the edge of the stock and the drill press wanted to rise and fall because of it for some reason (I think the hole saw's design was to blame there as this was a different style of hole saw than I have ever used before. Personally I think it was designed for use only on flat stock.

Anyway, the end of the story was that you have to be very light on the pressure you apply or it would hook and lock up on you. Adding cutting oil did help some and did keep some of the heat out of the mix. Anyway you went it was a ver slow process. The second piece was a much better job based on my learning on the first piece.

The other interesting thing was that there was not a whole lot of "shavings" out of the cut until just before the cut was finish then you got a mess of shavings thrown out. Also, the start of the cut was faster than the end of the cut; don't know why.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:51 pm

... and don't forget to wear gloves and eye protection. Got a bunch of little cuts and metal slivers that I didn't even notice at the time.

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:19 pm

Went out to the garage for a bit over an hour and got the parts made and the fit-check done before it got too cold. We have had only 5 days of not raining this month so the air is a bit damn-p :roll: .
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Last night I cut a 2" length of 1 X 2 tubing then this morning I cut the opposing corners to make two angle brackets (ignore the lines for a second). I also shortened the shorter of the two 3/16th in. brackets twice and still ended up with a net fit (I didn't measure and did it by eye). Its still just a bit too long but for a fit check it was a good idea.

I clamped the two brackets and 3/16th pieces together (that was a chore!) and looked to see what I had. It turned out that there was an overlap onto the torsion tube by the two mounting brackets so I cut an inch off each leg (the two marks you see).
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I clamped things back together and this is what I got after a lot of fooling around with it. The brackets are too short to get more than two bolts in place and still have a good "edge margin (an edge margin being the distance between the hole and the edge of all the parts which is needed for strength) plus a decent dia. of the bolts. This is a case where, for several reasons, I would like to have at least three propersized bolts holding the brackets to the torsion tube mount.
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While I didn't take a picture of the mounting brackets before I cut them the line is about where the edges were. I will have to cut the radius in the to match the torsion tube.

If you think I might be able to cut up the test tube I first cut a couple of days ago; nah; a good thought but when I looked into it everything is just enough wrong, it just looks right :roll: :lol: . It is the cut that is in the wrong place so I would have to recut it which means a new/modified jig. "Almost only counts in the game of Horseshoes." (https://www.usingenglish.com/reference/ ... nades.html I had never heard the last to bits before. Looking it up, from the write-ups, it seems to be accredited as an American idiom. There seems to be many who want to take credit for the term but it was old when I heard it in my early youth.

Lee
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