Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Offroad VW based vehicles have problems/insights all their own. Not to mention the knowledge gained in VW durability.

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:52 pm

I forgot to put this in my last post but it is a good picture of what I am not happy with as far as the Truss/Kaffer Bar/Traction bar kits go.
IMG_1123-A[1] - Copy - Copy.JPG
The arrow points to the shock mounting bolt and truss bar sans the shock. Notice the long shanked bolt and the amount of leverage than can be applied to it even if the shock was "pinched" into the "grip" (the term for those things a bolt assembly clamps together.

OK, the garage got warm enough for me go out and play for more than 5 of 10 minutes so I got looking at several ideas for the mount on the end of the trans mount.

I had a length of 1/8th inch flat stock to I cut a length out of it (roughly measured from the engine mount) and drilled a 1/2" hole in it. I then measured out the approximate location for the bend and tried to bend it using my 20-ton bender.

IMG_1122 copy.jpg
Using one of those "tools" :roll: I made for cutting the saddle mount (actually it worked) I laid it out on the two blocks for the bender then roughly centered it on the foot of the stand. I had made a long handled threaded thing many years ago (I don't remember what it was for now) as it hand a radius that I thought was OK and the handle kept my fingers away from things.

I then started to bend the bracket and was surprised just how well it went. The first bend was less than 1° off when I pulled the bracket out and checked the fit. I then put is back in to increase the bend ( a leaning thing to see if things would lay in correctly) and it worked.
IMG_1123 copy.jpg
This is the finished piece.
IMG_1120 copy.jpg
This is it clamped in place with the tube sitting on it and the other bracket.
IMG_1121 copy.jpg
The detail of the fit. :shock: Whoof!

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:59 pm

Third try. Raining out so I went up to the salvage yard and got two pieces of steel: a 4' length of 1 X 3 X 0.125 rectangular tube and a 1 foot length of 3" wide by 0.125 flat stock for brackets.

I cleaned the protective covering off the rectangular tube, tut it to length then, using the 1 X 2 rectangular tube for it's markings, I transferred the location marking to the new tube then clamped the tube into place on the shock mount tower.

I clamped the two mock-up pieces I had made into place then, using two of the spherical rod ends and their bolts I made a rough mock up a tube. I had a couple of 0.80 tubes lying around and found that if you left the plastic tube that protects the threads in place one of the tubes could hold the ends without them dropping out. I then made a mark on the tube and cut it to length.
IMG_1124 copy.jpg
IMG_1125 copy.jpg
This is what I ended up with. Not sure if this is going to be the final thing especially on the trans mount part but...
IMG_1121 copy.jpg
If I add a second piece of mount for the fuel tank (with angle iron verticals) and double up on the truss mount and weld the two together it might be OK potential strength wise. I may have to add a shim under the trans strap to keep it tight against the trans but than should be OK.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:10 pm

Class 11 streeter wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:48 am
Hey Fog looking great! I don't understand most of what you are doing but your passion and dedication tells me it's going to be awesome!
I think I may have gotten too complicated on the answer but basically I am trying to get the loading out of the shock mount and up into the cage to spread the loads around better. Not a perfect straight line connection but better than ending it in the shock mount eye where there is little or no real strength.
IMG_1089 copy.jpg
Think of what is going to happen when a load comes in and bends that Truss Bar compared to what I am doing when it connects to the roll cage. the shock mount is only going to service the shock not a flexing like a bow Truss/Kaffer/Traction bar causing twisting and pulling on the shock mount eye.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:32 pm

The other reason is the fuel tank. The front of the buggy body is so low that a special tank would have to be built but then there is no removable hood either (a lot of work to do).
7-28-2010 005 (2).JPG
Add to that the hood sits so low that the tank would probably have to be of a small holding capacity.
leebuggy.jpg
The second option is to put the tank in the body along with the battery. I have that now, but spaced a bit more apart than I could do here, in my Blue buggy. This is an old picture taken after the second tear down of the blue buggy.
IMG_0897 copy.jpg
The last option is the rear area of the buggy over the trans. t will sit higher than this but it shows the room available for it.

These last two post should give you an idea of some of the "things" I am working around.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:08 pm

After bending that one piece of flat stock in my 20-Ton press I got thinking as to what I could do (http://www.swagoffroad.com/20-TON-Press ... _p_40.html This is the first one I have seen. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/ge ... ess-81348/ this is a question similar to what I was thinking) so I got my brain to work (a case of Coke is enough to energize it usually :roll: :lol: )

I did some rough measurements' of the down post on my press (a bit under 4") and measured the OD of the post (1 1/2") then took the measurements up to where I usually get my salvaged steel. What I got was "RD UBEE 1-3/4" OD X 1.51/D .120 WALL. I also got a FLAT BAR 3/8' X 1'; the total cost was $7.13.

I cleaned up the pieces and deburred the tube then after some dressing of the down tube of the press the tube slipped on with almost now wiggle.

I then had to figure out how to join the two together: options were to notch the tube or to notch the flat stock. Since I had notched a tube recently I decided to cut the tube using two hole saws which turned out to be way more difficult than I thought. I latterly destroyed one hole saw (spit teeth our like you might in a street fight) and the drill press danced like a "hoochie-coocher". I finally got things done then welded them together today and radius'd the working end of the tool then tried it out.

I first used a piece of moderately flat stock using the tool I had made for the notching of the saddle mounts for a bending form. It worked so I went to a thicker piece of stock.
IMG_1126 copy.jpg
IMG_1127 copy.jpg
This stock measured 0.151 and for reasons I will mention later is less than 90°. The pressure on the 20-to press wasn't that much, probably iffy to when using a floor jack on a VW.

I did measure the bend and it was 7/8" then I measured the "thin out of the bend"; it was 0.001 but looked to be more.

Problems found was that if I did it again (and I will) I would go to the same tube but to 4" to 6" longer depending on a couple of things. The down tube of the press was all the way through the tube and resting on/working the 3/8" foot of the tool which I think it right. The tube is basically only to keep the whole unit straight with the jack.

I think I would also notch the tube next time as it is probably easier and cheaper. I was concerned with the arc but the welding covered that I think.
IMG_1122 copy.jpg
The 1" width to the flat stock was way too thin for a complete 90°bend (if possible) as the bend piece did not bottom out on the "V" of the tool but the tube of the tool did hit the sides of the "V"- shaped tool (does that makes sense) before the 3/8" part touched bottom. If I notched the flat stock again it would have to be at least 2" high if not more as it didn't go to the bottom of the tool I made to notch the tubing (the pix is of the notching tool used in the previous bend). I might even try a hunk of 1/4" stock also and, hopefully, get a tighter bend.

Anyway, if you try this be very careful as things have to be very straight for the pressure involved and stand away in-case something goes wrong
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:07 am

I forgot to mention that I haven't installed a "set screw" yet to keep the alignment to the jig in place. The pictures were just me in a hurry to see if it even worked.

Thinking about more last night I might keep the 3" tall tube but more likely will go an inch taller so I can saddle the "blade" deeper" into the tube and use a couple inch wider piece of flat stock for the blade. I still want the down tube of the press to work on the blade not the tube itself as it is more for alignment than loading.

If I stay with the 3'8" wide stock I might, rather then making a full radius on the one end of the blade I might taper the blade down to 1/4" then radius that.

I also might make a new jig allowing more room for an adjustable stop to get different depth for the flanges and keeps the stock square to the jig. Speeds things up a bit.

Lee

Additional info. the reason I have the 3+ inch tube is because, unlike the Swag unit, I don't have guides for to hold the in place as pressure is applied. The more I look at the Sway unit the better I like it now that you can order it fully welded for $100 more.

Ol'fogasaurus
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Location: Just north of Seattle

Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:13 pm

My wife and I have been so busy with other things plus trying to adjust to the weird weather here that I haven't been working on the buggy much. Thinking about it yes, but now working on it no. Spring is so late this year that the flowers and trees are just coming in bud; normally this is done before we got back from Snowbirding (done with that now) but they are just starting to bloom this week.

On the spreader bar for the Kaffer bar and down tubes for the cage: I said I was going to lean towards the 1 X 3 X 0.12 wall tube due to I am not sure which engine I will put in it. I still have the V6 tied to an 091 and could swap in the 1776 out of my blue buggy but not sure yet. I did build one of the two end close-out pieces for the tube to keep the water and salt out of the tube.
IMG_1128 copy.jpg
This is the cut off end of the rectangular tube I am using for a mockup. Notice the seam which is where I had the problems when I made the body lift.
7-28-2010 007 (2).JPG
Since a lot of these pictures are now gone this is what the body lift looks like; 1 X 3 X 0.095 wall rectangular tube. I had so much trouble with the seam when welding around the kerf seams I ended up putting a doubler around the bends to protect for any unknown weaknesses.

This time I an going to do something different to both ends of the tube and that is to put a end cap on that is also a doubler for the seam. The Kaffer bar bracket will also serve as a doubler too.
IMG_1129 copy.jpg
IMG_1130 copy.jpg
This is the first one and while it isn't pretty it fits and will do what I want it to do. It is made from some scrap 1 X 1 angle iron probably somewhere around 0.095 thick. I cut it to a length just short of the long width of the tube with the leg sitting in the rectangular tube. I then trimmed the exposed 1" leg down to get some area to weld the cover to the tube.
IMG_1131 copy.jpg
This way I can drill two holes in the seam side of the rectangular tube to do a rosette/plug weld between the tube and the angle iron end plate. I will dress the weld, plug weld it in place then do a finish weld around the outside of the cover and dress the weld up.

Is it overkill... yep! But after some surprise adventures out on the dunes and not knowing which of the two engines I will end up with it is a "piece of mind" addition.

Lee

Having problems and the first and the last pictures are turned around and I can't clear them up.
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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:05 pm

You COULD have simply used a 2-3/4" long piece of 1/8 x 3/4" strap to weld on as a cap. I approve of capping tubes in a sand or beach buggy. I also think you're over-stressing about using electro weld tubing. In all of my years of working as a race Tech Inspector, I have NEVER seen an electro weld tube, whether round cage tube or rectangular frame rail tube, fail along the seam. That sort of tubing MAY NOT be accepted by FAA for aircraft structures. But there are hundreds of thousands of circle track racers that have used it.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills!, but then...So does OLD AGE!!
A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech Inspection
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'58 Baja with 815K Miles and counting

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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:21 pm

It's WAY late now...But those gussets for the bends on your body lift are a good idea, especially the ones on the INBOARD side where the kerfs are. The seam on the tube should have been on the inboard side anyway, just as you did it. But the ends of the gussets should have been tapered so they wouldn't create stress risers at their ends. And the inboard and outboard should not end opposite each other. They should be staggered to avoid, again, stress risers.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills!, but then...So does OLD AGE!!
A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech Inspection
MDR / MORE / Glen Helen BajaCup Challenge
AKA: MojaveRacer208
'58 Baja with 815K Miles and counting

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:41 pm

I am sure you have seen some real damn-age during racing just as I have seen done out on the dunes by newbies; buy a rail then total it within the first hour (or less) on the sand. :roll:

As I said, I know this is over kill but with all the trouble I had with the body lift around the welded seams while kerfing for the bends i decided to go quite a bit over board. I do have a length of 0.095 wall which I do like better mainly because of the large radius on the 1/8" but I still would do the end the same way. Remember, I only have a short piece of contact area to mount to at each end so there could be the potential of quite-bit of loading at each end.

I was only called once by the FAA on something I allowed but I told them I had no choice as I was overruled by supervision. I later was able to get the basic problem fixed (or it was supposed to have been as i suddenly had to retire early) so it couldn't be abused that way.

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:09 am

DSC00647 (2).JPG
This is how far down the pan went before the fight to rebuild it. The biggest problem was the glue on the BAJA the pan came from. It had two layers of house hold carpeting glued into place and it was almost half way up the tunnel. The glue had gotten into the grain of the steel and stopped welding even when I had a Pro welder have a go at it. When I sprayed the Zinc weld through primer on it some how caused the glue to lift and then could be scraped away so I could weld to the pan. That problem literally took years to accidently come up with a solution to.
IMG_0288 copy.jpg
Here you can see the body lift, the sand rail type of pedal assembly (I would never do this again!) and the start of plumbing being added. Notice that I gusseted the front and the Napoleon's hat and while you can't see it that well, the rear cross-piece join to the side rails have vertical corner gussets also. I couldn't gusset to the inside of the front join as there is literally no room for it with this pedal assembly.

The top picture is one of the many that are being held hostage.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:50 pm

IMG_1132 copy.jpg
Thought you might be interested, Three pieces of 1 X 3 rectangular tube. From the left: two sections are 0.12 wall with the end one being 0.060 wall. Notice the bend radius on the first two, the first one, on the left, has a larger radius than the second one... why ?; because I buy from a metal salvage business so you don't always get them from the same lot even if you ask for it as the current stock may be from different sources.
Dune Buggy rebuild 10-25-06 002.jpg
On my blue buggy, the body lift was made from 0.095 stock, even though they were from two different "sticks" both behaved very well considering that I was kerf bending them.
black buggy pan build 002 copy.jpg
On my black buggy the two sticks used to make the sides of the lift were also .095 wall but appearantly may/were gleaned from two different longer sticks as when I tried to weld near the material join in the center the metal about a half an inch on either side of the weld one of the sticks wanted to melt at the seam. This is why the doublers were added to cover and strengthen the bends.

My guess is that the two stick came from two different companies but that is a guess. I pay for metal by the pound.

There were some other odd things but I forget which happened where now. To bad Photobrokeit is doing what it is.

Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:48 pm

I got some time in the garage today. It is warming up around here but it is still very wet!
IMG_1137 copy.jpg
This is where I am going to mount the spreader bar. The mounting area tapers down from ~1 1/4" to under 1" where the blue tape is. This is why I think I am going to stay with the 1 X 3 X 0.12" wall tube. All the loading will be here plus going up the down bars from the cage... hopefully that is.
IMG_1134 copy.jpg
This is the seamed side of the 1 X 3 tube. I finished off the second of the end caps, both have a leg that goes down inside the tube so the seamed area will have a doubler. It will be plug/rosette welded. The hole is a bit small due to the limited leg length: 1/8th dia.. I then CSK'd it using a 82° CSK.
IMG_1135 copy.jpg
Sorry about the blurry photo but the camera was insistent to focus on the background. There are 4 CSKs, 82°, 90°, 100° and 120° with 82° probably being the most common CSK. I would have liked to CSK at a shallower angle but this is what I had at home. I did the CSK about half way down in order to keep some "meat" in the hole. Again, the mounting surface and the seam drove me to this.
IMG_1136 copy.jpg
This shows the end cap taped in place waiting to be welded but that is for tomorrow... I hope.

Lee

Still having posting problems hence the double picture.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:35 pm

IMG_1138 copy.jpg
Got the end caps welded on this am. If it wasn't for if's and and's it would be perfect.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:55 am

CAUTION: just a reminder,
001.JPG
IMG_1015-01 copy.jpg
I was moving my pan around while it was still sitting on the jack stands which were sitting on "floored" wheel dollies (not really recommended but done) when one of the dolly wheels on the right rear got stuck in one of the seams on my garage floor (apparently I wasn't paying attention) and that jack stand tipped over putting the bare pan in torque. I got everything put back on the stand and leveled back out but now the front beam isn't fully touching its stand on the right side so I am going to have to do some pan de-racking.

With out a fully structured body on the pan to hold things in shape (the top of the body is very important for load transfers) it is easy to "rack" (put a twist)/twist the pan enough to put a "set" in place. This is one of the real problems with glass body toys, especially ones that do not have a roof to them. A cage helps in the main part of the pan but if the body already is "racked" even slightly when the cage is built then it can help hold the "rack" in place but you still need to add some support to the frame head also. This is one of the big problem with unibody especially the way the "bugs" were built with bolting together rather than welded together.
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