Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

[Ol'fogasaurus]

https://www.instructables.com/id/Making ... ndsaw-or-/

I ran into this also. The saw looks to be the same fairly inexpensive style I already have. I need to do some testing on this way of cutting this kind of joint.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

About the last couple of posts on bending PCV tube: normally if I was still working "on the board" or working with CAD I could draw up what I needed and find the angles I needed for the cage, down bars, seat belt tube and diagonals but if I would figure it out using PCV pipe, fittings and bend the tubes I could get very close to the angle(s) I need to re-set the angle of the base(s) of the spreader bar. I would cut the necessary depth of the cut to meat the width of the shock tower above the radius of the 1' end to re-angle it, weld it then box the end of the tube to act as an additional support to the modified angle.

I am going to see if I can come up with the proper dia. PCV tomorrow hopefully.

Any other ideas are still accepted.

I think my wife will go "Nutsy Fagan" over what I am planning on doing but it is helping me to keep my brain (such as it is) working.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I took one of the adapters I made to hook to the 1 X 4 spreader bar to my closest box store and tried to put a 1" dia. PCV tube in it... perfect fit with literally no slop. The guy there and I had an interesting conversation on the subject also. I have a couple of other things to check plus 1 to 2 weeks of lifting, pushing or pulling limitations to go. I need to get a measurement from the tallest guy in our group plus 4" to locate the bottom of the cage tube.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Honestly Lee, I've seen a LOT of buggies of various types with gas tanks like yours with tank supports of 1" OD round tube of unknown wall thickness that have gone many years with no troubles. Can't say I've ever seen one that had failed.

Those holes you're using for the rotisserie mounts could still be used for bumper cage mounts, but the main bottom bumper tubes should be spaced down to below the engine. That could be done by using a short piece of tube with nut to attach to the motor mount with a 3/4" bolt, then a piece of 1.5" tube welded to that and going straight down, or angled down at least far enough to be even with the bottom of the case. Then a horizontal main tube extending back welded to the bottom end of that vertical square tube. That vertical would require a couple of fishmouths to do. Still pretty EZ.

I like to put a 45° bend in my bottom bumper cage tubes starting even with the back edge of the engine case to reduce the tail dragging, in sand or in hard desert. I then put another 45°, or whatever the angle works out to be, to make the back face of the bumper. It's REAL popular with sand dune folks to make the bend a 90° behind the headers. What a drag, man!
256_8972.JPG

That Bug had a Hobrecht bumper cage with a 90° bend for decades. That style is now sold by EMPI. It's what my dad chose back in the mid 70s. So the back end of the bottom bars were forever scraped and the car got hung up on them a time or 3. The 45° bend eliminates about 14-16" of drag.

Thanks Dusty. I think I got so involved with the playing with bending the plastic tube I kind of overlooked your post for a while.

The idea of the 45° is a good idea but I sure hope I never hit that hard in the sand that I would need it. So far the stock 90°cage has worked on the blue buggy but then I have had a couple of Who-hoo drops which makes your idea a good one. For sure I will keep it is mind. Again, thanks a lot.

Two more weeks of limitations then slowly work back intodoing heavier things.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

One and a half weeks before freedom (build myself back up to freedom at least) but I am still playing with ideas. Working on the truss bar, seats, upper front beam support (not shown) and cage (as one would expect, they are all tied in together). Right now I am getting things together to mock up the rear hoop and I think I need some imput.

IMG_1307 copy.jpg

This is where I think I am but with maybe a change or two. I think I want to tie the rear hoop to the body lift with maybe putting a foot pad on the bottom but the area is small and I think there might be a slight angle on the floor. Not sure yet but before I do anything it will be figured out. Also, there is a triangular piece doubling up the join of the sides of the body lift and the rear cross-piece.

The tube you see is the same dia and wall thickness as the recommendations for a cage. What I did find is that 1" dia PCV tube will fit inside the tube very tightly and it can be bent in one of the three ways as I posted. Looking at things in the box store I found some other, you wouldn't guess it, goodies that can be used to make the affixments to build the hoop to the dimensions I think I need including the down pieces and maybe part of the problem forward side tubes. I still am limited to the 25#s lifting and equivalent limits to pushing and shoving so the 1 to 2 weeks will be needed for protection (there was a lot of messing around done inside me).

sleeved[1].jpg

Dusty (et al) I have a question. When picking up the tube pieces I needed for the cage mockup I also picked up a pair of short tubes for the down bar from the cage to the saddle tube on the spreader bar tube. The tube fits inside the saddle tube which is the size tube that cages use and is almost a net fit/press fit but.... when I got home I noticed it is not DOM but has a seam. Is this a problem or should I go and get a DOM piece of tube.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Update, the triangular pieces at the rear of the body lift had not been added yet, that was on my blue buggy body lift that I had done the triangles. If I go with the cage tubes with their support doing the same job as the triangle doublers and bottom piece I think things would be the same if not better.

Been out to the garage several times looking at things since I posted the last time.

Lee

[dustymojave]

For mockup, PVC is fine. Don't try it on the dunes though!

That method can be used for steel tube as well, with slight adjustments to the method. Like using consistent and very dry sand Grab some at the dunes. You probably bring home quite a bit in your shoes. That sand used in the 2nd video is crappy and has lots of different sizes of grains. That's not good. Cap with a piece of metal welded on the end, then PACK the sand hard, then weld a metal cap on the other end. Capping solidly and packing good quality sand would help bending the PVC too. Use a gas torch with a rosebud to heat the tube instead of a hair drier.

Sine you're talking about mocking up a roll cage, you might want to bend the PVC using some sort of bending die,with a radius similar to what will be used for the steel tube. Like 5.5" radius with 1" or 1-1/4" PVC pipe (You want to use about 1.5" OD PVC pipe).

[dustymojave]

Honestly Lee, I've seen a LOT of buggies of various types with gas tanks like yours with tank supports of 1" OD round tube of unknown wall thickness that have gone many years with no troubles. Can't say I've ever seen one that had failed.

Those holes you're using for the rotisserie mounts could still be used for bumper cage mounts, but the main bottom bumper tubes should be spaced down to below the engine. That could be done by using a short piece of tube with nut to attach to the motor mount with a 3/4" bolt, then a piece of 1.5" tube welded to that and going straight down, or angled down at least far enough to be even with the bottom of the case. Then a horizontal main tube extending back welded to the bottom end of that vertical square tube. That vertical would require a couple of fishmouths to do. Still pretty EZ.

I like to put a 45° bend in my bottom bumper cage tubes starting even with the back edge of the engine case to reduce the tail dragging, in sand or in hard desert. I then put another 45°, or whatever the angle works out to be, to make the back face of the bumper. It's REAL popular with sand dune folks to make the bend a 90° behind the headers. What a drag, man!
256_8972.JPG

That Bug had a Hobrecht bumper cage with a 90° bend for decades. That style is now sold by EMPI. It's what my dad chose back in the mid 70s. So the back end of the bottom bars were forever scraped and the car got hung up on them a time or 3. The 45° bend eliminates about 14-16" of drag.

Thanks Dusty. I think I got so involved with the playing with bending the plastic tube I kind of overlooked your post for a while.

The idea of the 45° is a good idea but I sure hope I never hit that hard in the sand that I would need it. So far the stock 90°cage has worked on the blue buggy but then I have had a couple of Who-hoo drops which makes your idea a good one. For sure I will keep it is mind. Again, thanks a lot.

Two more weeks of limitations then slowly work back intodoing heavier things.

Lee

Not talking about hitting the back end of the cage on a vertical drop. That angle is to eliminate dragging when changing angles or driving over some obstacle. Not as much of an issue when duning as when crawling over rocks, but still applies.

[dustymojave]

One and a half weeks before freedom (build myself back up to freedom at least) but I am still playing with ideas. Working on the truss bar, seats, upper front beam support (not shown) and cage (as one would expect, they are all tied in together). Right now I am getting things together to mock up the rear hoop and I think I need some imput.

IMG_1307 copy.jpg

This is where I think I am but with maybe a change or two. I think I want to tie the rear hoop to the body lift with maybe putting a foot pad on the bottom but the area is small and I think there might be a slight angle on the floor. Not sure yet but before I do anything it will be figured out. Also, there is a triangular piece doubling up the join of the sides of the body lift and the rear cross-piece.

The tube you see is the same dia and wall thickness as the recommendations for a cage. What I did find is that 1" dia PCV tube will fit inside the tube very tightly and it can be bent in one of the three ways as I posted. Looking at things in the box store I found some other, you wouldn't guess it, goodies that can be used to make the affixments to build the hoop to the dimensions I think I need including the down pieces and maybe part of the problem forward side tubes. I still am limited to the 25#s lifting and equivalent limits to pushing and shoving so the 1 to 2 weeks will be needed for protection (there was a lot of messing around done inside me).

sleeved[1].jpg

Dusty (et al) I have a question. When picking up the tube pieces I needed for the cage mockup I also picked up a pair of short tubes for the down bar from the cage to the saddle tube on the spreader bar tube. The tube fits inside the saddle tube which is the size tube that cages use and is almost a net fit/press fit but.... when I got home I noticed it is not DOM but has a seam. Is this a problem or should I go and get a DOM piece of tube.

Lee

My preferred roll cage material is DOM. 4130 is too brittle for my liking in that application. But I have NO problem with using ERW either. I have NEVER observed a roll bar or cage fail due to it being made of ERW tube. I HAVE seen a number of roll bars and cages fail due to being made of 4130. My old Hi Jumper got quadruple endoed while at flat out speed and the cage and the entire ERW frame held up JUST FINE. No cracks or any even bending. The suspension was entirely wadded up and wasted. But the cage was entirely undamaged. Still good over 40 years later. I have NEVER encountered an ERW cage tube split lengthwise along it's seam. I've seen an ERW tube accordion crushed lengthwise in a crash, without any failure along the seam. Note that DOM and 4130 tube ARE seamed tube. That seam is spiral wrapped instead of straight, and then dragged over a mandrel and through a die which hides the seam. It is STILL electro welded tube. I see NO problem using it for interior sleeve for a joint as you describe. Perhaps, in theory, it is not as strong. If it's pipe for water or gas or fence, it might be made of material which is not intended for structural use and thus be weaker. But if it's structural tube or pipe, you're good. DOM is easier to get a good fit between inner sleeve and outer tube, especially if using .120 wall tube. But if the tube you found for sleeve fits well inside the outer tube, again, you're good.

Welding the cage uprights to the body lift tubing is something I suggested quite a while back. Much stronger than attaching the cage directly to the pan sheet metal.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

"Welding the cage uprights to the body lift tubing is something I suggested quite a while back. Much stronger than attaching the cage directly to the pan sheet metal."

I didn't remember you recommending that or I wouldn't have re-asked. Thanks. Just trying to be careful on this.

The cage W/B DOM but the sleeve material turned out to be seamed, I'm just not sure what it is other than it fits perfectly into the short tubes but has a seam in it. The tubes the sleeve fits into are the recommended DOM for cages. The tube is not lightweight stuff so what you said relieves a lot of worry. what they were going to sell me was not nearly that good of a fit... it was something that I found in a different place and tried inserting it into my saddle mount and it was an Oo-lala fit.

Thanks again for the reply.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Dusty, it was not the rear I was worried most about but the front hoop. I would still like to be able to remove the body off the pan but the cage, no matter on how I play with ideas is causing the problem.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1928-1929-1930 ... 3160109994

I think I may have a way to support the running boards using a hoop on the sides of the body lift then a contact to a foot plate on the running board itself. This is an example of one but then I think I could make my own custom ones too. My step daughter is fairly short and moves kind of awkward at times so the foot plate for her to get in to the buggy dodging the cage and the body lines is probably necessary.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

It is getting easier to lift or move stuff but awkward lifting, such as moving the seat from the mount to the passenger side of the pan can hurt.

Anyway, I bought a string level yesterday to check something I thought I noticed.

IMG_1308 copy.jpg

By tying the loop like I did I was able to move the string to the center of the tube. The upper front beam support is level so when I stretched the string tight and attached it to the new rear spreader bar...

IMG_1310 copy.jpg

IMG_1309 copy.jpg

This is what I got; suspicion confirmed. It was very close as it was but moving the spreader bar down about 1/4" got a level bubble.

IMG_1311 copy.jpg

IMG_1312 copy.jpg

In the first picture it looked like the string raised past the seat but in the second picture it showed an optical illusion.

If I put a drop to the bar from the front to the rear hoop using the front and rear locations of the seat (white and blue tape marks on the body lift) I might be able to get some additional side protection and cage protection. Just will need a diagonal or "V" for strength.

Still looking for a tube connection with a long insert into the tube and a good connection between tubes so the body can be removed from the pan at some later time for damage control. Did see on version that looked interesting but couldn't find out where the design came from.

Lee

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Took some pix last night and marked one up as one of several ideas on how to put a somewhat load distributing cage in.

IMG_1315 copy.jpg

Lee

[Leatherneck]

Lee, you sir are making some progress.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Thanks Leather. I've been having to deal with the miniscule areas of the whole for so long that the overall stuff, while not forgotten, was not talked about either. I am still not happy with what I posted last but it is at lease starting to come (but then so are other more permanent things )

Another week or maybe a bit longer before I can lift anything heavy or awkward. Got reminded of that again yesterday (yip/ooch).

Lee