Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:02 pm

Started building the upper truss brackets today. The mock-up was OK but I wanted to make some changes to get the spherical rod ends lower into the bracket. I dropped them 1/4" from 1" up from the bottom to 3/4" from the bottom which mounts to the spreader bar I got the ends done on yesterday.
IMG_1139 copy.jpg
Using an older length of 1 X 3 X 0.12 rectangular tub I had that has tighter bends I marked and drilled the holes using a series of drill bits finishing off with a 1/2" bit. After bead blasting then some de-burring and file work I got very close to a class III bolt holes for both brackets (class III holes are hand drilled close tolerance holes using a sharp drill)
IMG_1140 copy.jpg
This shows the "fender washers" I will use to "double up" on the holes to cover for those "hard hits" that can cause the pickle forks do the "dance of death".
IMG_1141 copy.jpg
This shows the test piece I made sitting on the tube. The brackets will be a bit shorter in height due to the lowering of the pivot bolts while being fatter at the top due to the doublers I will weld in place. There are other structural mods I could make if I get more anal about this that I am already.

Lee
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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:07 pm

Are you planning to gusset the ends of the cross truss to the shock towers? That would dramatically alleviate your concerns about small contact area tower to truss tube.
Richard
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:40 pm

IMG_1138 copy.jpg
This is the picture I posted the other day showing the end caps having been added to the ends of the spreader bar and it is just loosely sitting on the shock towers. The spreader bar will be mounted on the shock towers just above where the bar was sitting (where the body mount bolt in the rear fender area is) when I took the picture. It will be almost perpendicular to the shock tower but at an angle of which I am not sure it will be set at yet. The reason being I have to do some kind of mock up for the rear cage in order to get the angle (or close to) of the down bars to the spreader bar to the spreader to transfer loads from the torsion assembly to which the frame horns are attached to and keep from adding too much bend to the down bars.

The mounting area of the shock mount starts roughly an inch and a quarter wide at the body mount bolt then tapers to an inch... then quickly less. I will have a triangular gusset that will be mounted on the body mount pad with a solid piece of rod sticking down into the hole to keep the mount from sliding under load. The mount will be welded to both the tower and the 1 X 3 with another piece going up the tower to the shock eye to give some additional support to the tower and the spreader bar.

This assembly/design is important as I don't have a metal body with a roof on it to attach to. I don't have a tubular chassis like a sand rail does to attach the truss/Kaffer/traction bar to. Even with a cage in the bug body I would still recommend connecting the truss assembly to the cage as even with a doubler the thin body material is still weak and not designed to support an up and down loading like could be had off-road.

The torsion tube with the trans and engine are mounted to kind of look like a tube with some levers on it when looking at it from the side. I don't want the truss bar to go to the shock tower directly as any up or down motion of the engine and trans, whether they are just bouncing around or receive a smack off the ground could cause the shock towers to either be pushed out or pulled in potentially causing the forging to break; it needs a spreader bar in there to neutralize/hold the towers in place to contradict the majority of the side loading. I then want the loads to go up into the cage via the down tubes to be spread around some more.

The torsion assembly is a unit in itself that contacts the pan at the tunnel and at the ends by those two little hooks. If you bang the torsion assembly, say at the engine the torsion assembly, it is going to want to rotate and not really dispel loads around, at least that much. This is why I am trying out the direction I am heading. Right or wrong, I think it is better/stronger than what is commercially available right now. Even the Mozilla "Stiffy" still falls into the same limited torsion tube assembly thinking.

Does this make sense?

Lee

I also forgot, the fuel tank is going to be mounted here too. L
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:54 pm

I made the top truss mounts out of leftover 1 X 3 X 0.012 rectangular tube. They have a foot on the that is 3" long, the hole is centered and 3/4" up from the foot (base). I could have made 2 angle mounts but this was easier and cleaner. I think, at the most one washer could be used as a shim to close the gap when the spherical rod is in place. I cleaned them up the other day then, today, bead blasted 4 fender washers designed for use with 1/2" bolts then welded them in place. I am not the best welder by any means so they don't look like I would prefer them to look like but they are now done and clamped into place.
IMG_1142 copy.jpg
This are they (old tyme hoity-toity socialite grammar :roll: :wink: :lol:) sitting in place and aligned to where the new lower brackets should end up being located.

I'm still playing with 2 or three ways I am thinking of to build that lower truss mount that also allows the fuel tank legs to fit into place (or not :wink: ); I think the rear ones will be sitting at an angle but not sure yet. I want the tank straps to be as far outboard on the tank as possible but I haven't measured things properly yet. The marks on the spreader bar, which are tentative bolt locations, are ~20" apart while the trans mount is ~15" side to side which means that the angle the rear straps will sit at aren't as bad as I had been thinking and moving the tank mount ~2 1/2" inboard may not give the consequences' I am concerned of with the straps being too close to the center of the tank. I have to put the body back on to locate the tank and see just how long the mounts will be.

I'll have to pull the trans out so I can modify the solid trans mount to allow the rear tank mounts and the lower truss mounts to be mounted to it. The mod is also to allow for the rear engine cage to be mounted to the lower flange and not cause abuse to the mount on a hard smack on the ground.
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dustymojave
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:36 pm

From your last couple or 3 posts, Lee, I get the impression that you're thinking of the structural strength of each individual piece of this buggy, rather than thinking of the car as a whole. You definitely need to consider the loads on the end of the yokes getting spread all the way to the front of the frame, like in a full-tube frame car. I've been thinking of you welding the ends of the spreader to the forgings. And adding a gusset at each end of the spreader to the forging, in line with the spreader. The gussets I think of are vertical to the inner face of the forging, not so much up to the shock boss. See that existing gusset to the bottom flange of the forging?

The roll cage rear brace bars will help transfer loads up to the roll bar. I've recommended before that you add diagonal door bars down to the bottom of the A pillar. That will transfer loads farther forward. You seem to think those will get in the way of the seats, although they COULD fit under the side of the body shell. You're also tying the outer ends of the torsion housing to the body lift, right? All these connections spread loads around. If you bolt the spreader to the forgings, you won't gain near as much strength as if you weld the joints.
Richard
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:05 pm

dustymojave wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:36 pm
From your last couple or 3 posts, Lee, I get the impression that you're thinking of the structural strength of each individual piece of this buggy, rather than thinking of the car as a whole. You definitely need to consider the loads on the end of the yokes getting spread all the way to the front of the frame, like in a full-tube frame car. I've been thinking of you welding the ends of the spreader to the forgings. And adding a gusset at each end of the spreader to the forging, in line with the spreader. The gussets I think of are vertical to the inner face of the forging, not so much up to the shock boss. See that existing gusset to the bottom flange of the forging?

The roll cage rear brace bars will help transfer loads up to the roll bar. I've recommended before that you add diagonal door bars down to the bottom of the A pillar. That will transfer loads farther forward. You seem to think those will get in the way of the seats, although they COULD fit under the side of the body shell. You're also tying the outer ends of the torsion housing to the body lift, right? All these connections spread loads around. If you bolt the spreader to the forgings, you won't gain near as much strength as if you weld the joints.
No, I am looking at the overall transfer of loads through the pan and cage. The body itself adds little or no support to the assembly. You have to remember that where I worked we looked at the whole then broke it down to sub-sections then built everything back up to finish the whole. I still work like that but a lot of what I am posting is the sectioning out of each part of the problem then back checking it to the workings of the whole. I used to do it on the drafting table then in CAD but now it is by mockup. I know I do things a bit different than others do but that is me and how I had to work for almost 34 years.

If you are saying that I butt fit the spreader bar to the forging then I don't consider myself to be that good of a welder to accomplish that.

I just ran into a problem that I had forgotten about even when seeing the problem in use; this makes makes a bit of change and your butt fitting would be a way around it assuming I doubled up and added a boxing to the shock mount forging then butt welded the spreader in place. The hole in the body mount platform on the forging is where you put a bolt head when using the tool to work with the preload of the torsion bar. Where I was going to install the spreader the gussets would negate the use of that area. Somethings I can get too focused and miss stuff just like everyone.

I drew up the V-shaped door bars and, after some manureing (the play on words is appropriate) around, I think they will fit even with the wide butt seats I have. That has been the plan since I drew up the picture and you agreed I think.

The double up support for the torsion housing is still being planned to be attached to the body lift as you said. Its just on the list of things to do when I take the rear suspension off so I can get into the area to do some welding. I have several structural problems there to fix at the same time.

I will soon have to get some help lifting the body back on the pan to take some measurements for the mounting of the fuel tank then lift the body back onto the stand.

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:06 pm

Its funny, I left that bolt in place so I wouldn't forget it and... I did :roll: . I kept working around it and just ignored it after awhile. Originally I was going to put the spreader up higher for that reason but it just didn't look that strong due to the taper of the shock tower. Not sure just what I am going to do now but access needs to be still available. Not sure if I am going to box the forging or not. Hmmmm !

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:52 pm

I still want to be able to use that body mount landing for the two different needs so I am trying to work on an option that will allow that. Strength is the main problem when it comes to setting the preload.

I don't want to set the spreader bar up higher on the shock mount like I originally had it planned which, besides the setting of the preload, is the other problem that needs to be addressed. Dusty and my discussion on putting the truss bar load into the cage is still the main design along with the V-shaped side bars (still questionable due to space between body and seat as it moves forward and aft) but so is the saving of the shock tower from breaking; the loads to the cage, if this is done right, is going to remove some of it with the operating word being "IF". I've seem several broken shock towers out on the dunes as well as the "pickle forks" either broken or angled down so the engine is dragging on the sand (one of the guys who used to ride with our group did that after a hard landing, his "cheap fix" didn't help that much as it failed also).

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by dustymojave » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:32 am

I AM NOT considering the body shell for structural strength. Just the pan and whatever you weld/bolt or otherwise fasten permanently to it. So I think you and I are agreeing there.

I agree with the spreader bar NOT being mounted to the body mount landing. It would be handy to have a bolt there to use for spring plate tool. Otherwise, it's a good spot. however, the higher and farther back that spreader is mounted, the better it will serve structurally for sharing loads with the yokes and shock mounts as well as for a gas tank mount. The width of the shock tower is NOT an issue. That gusset I described before will help with that. It's good to plate box the inboard side of the tower. Jeff Hibbard showed that in Baja bugs and Buggies over 35 years ago. What I'm describing won't require great welding skills. You could also add gussets at the end of the torsion housing tube to the shock tower forging.
Richard
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:43 am

I'll re-read your post but closer this time and check with the Hibbard book of which I have several copies. I wasn't talking to you about the body just an overall description of the limitations I have with the glass body vs. a bug body or a rail for those who are following this hunt for a (hopefully) better way of supporting the overall torsion assembly.

I have those lighter weight "sticks" I was playing with and might try trimming one down and checking things out to see if I like it.

Kind of bummed right now: just got back from the dunes (work, new well) and found my almost 18 year old cat dead. She was my best "Bud"... after my wife of course and was always around me in the house (outdoor or indoor/outdoor cats don't live long around here with so many predators in the green belts). The wife's cat but bonded to me just after we got her. Very emotional and bummed out right now!

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by bajaherbie » Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:29 pm

Sorry for your loss Lee. We just buried our beloved Poobie. 17 yr old male poodle/Bichon mix. We laid him next to Bubbles the biting poodle.


He got cranky in his old age and would bite like heck. Image

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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:50 pm

Sorry to hear about your loss too Herb. Thanks for the thoughts... I really appreciate them. Pets are a comfort but they can be/are also be like losing human family member. We still see their, in this case her, shadow at corners at times so it will take a while to get over it.

I haven't been able to get to re-read Dusty's input again and I just got the Baja Bug & Buggies off the shelf (after I had moved it from my overhead shelf at my desk to make room for some other stuff). I have had some other stuff that we brought home in the truck from the dunes to fix so that has also taken up a lot of time today. It will take up some time but while tearing it apart I did get some of the old but lighter weight rectangular tubing out of the storage bin to do some test fitting with.

Since I got my computer attacked again today I am thinking about going to a different setup that has drawing capabilities that I can modify pictures with. Big bucks though so I am doing a lot of sole ( :roll: ) searching on it.

Lee

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:08 pm

The pictures and text that Dusty is referring to start on page 75 with the title "REAR-SUSPENSION BRACING" and the pictures on the continuation page 76. It is worth looking into especially for those of you with rails still using the stock shocks and towers. I'll try to duplicate them tomorrow assuming I have time, Tuesday is out as we have to go into Seattle for a Dr. appt. for my wife but I will try to get them done soon. Seattle isn't that far but traffic has gotten so bad lately.

I did a quick test to see what would happen if I did what Dusty is talking about but first look would be that I would have to go back to the 1 X 2 and go with a 0.12 wall thickness. That, on a cursory look looks like even that would get very close to my hydraulic clutch conversion (I would have to check the arc of the clutch arm) unless I moved it up higher but then other problems raise their potentially "ooogully heads". I'll try to take pictures of the and to some moving around of the assembly. It is an interesting thought that I hadn't considered and even after a first, but not closely done look, it just might work. Its a good thing I haven't bent too much stuff yet. but with the 2" tube width the 3" brackets I made and have clamped in place would be toast :roll: .

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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:35 pm

Trying to keep busy for the next few days So I went out and did a mock-up and took a couple of pictures.
IMG_1154 copy.jpg
This is the 2 X 2 sitting against the shock mount forging using the 1 X 3 as a positioner. Jeff Hibbard recommend 1/8th stock for boxing.
IMG_1152 copy.jpg
Again, the 1 X 2 held in place on the 1 X 3. This is in the area of the clutch bracket. Since it is a solid mount the pivot might cause the threaded area to rise (or lower) which has to be checked.
IMG_1153 copy.jpg
This is a side view. The gap is a finger width or roughly 1/2".

Just for the heck of it.

Lee
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Re: Ol'fogasaurus black buggy

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:38 am

If a couple of other check for clearance work then the pan comes apart and back up on the rotisserie for fitting and welding including the supports for the pan to torsion housing. I'm not sure I like the way Jeff Hibbard did his (the welding of thin and thicker metals together:[the bottom of page 75 with the pix on page 76]) but if I am back up on the rotisserie then it would be easier than what I was going to do.
001.JPG
7-28-2010 007 (2).JPG
7-28-2010 001 (2).JPG
(these are old pictures which may not be available after the Photobucket thing. The top picture shows the bottom tube I added for strength to double up the body lift incase it comes loose for some reason. I found a draw back to this not too long ago as, by itself, the 1" tube will bend and can take a set when as when people sit in the pan w/o the body lift also bolted in place. If you were interested in doing it you could use a 1 X 2 then you could use it also as a rock slider knowing you might have to replace it. There might be one other minor drawback to the 1 X 2 thought but I am re-bringing the idea up as long as the picture is posted.)

Since the pan is currently assembled only "finger tight", bolt wise, putting it back up on the rotisserie won't really be a step back but will also let me finish closing out the tunnel, adding and doubling up on the seat mount, closing that one hole in the tunnel where the e-brake assy was plus it probably would make mounting the turning brake handles and the remote cylinders easier to do. What is left of the plumbing to complete might be easier this way also.
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