Tim's Green Bug...
- TimS
- Posts: 5723
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:11 pm
Tim's Green Bug...
Hello all,
I've been working on a way to strengthen my engine mounts and could use your input.
Goals:
1. Fits my skills and tools (square tube mitered or straight round tube)
2. Able to remove engine and trans together with pallet jack (removable crossmember)
3. use subaru engine mount locations. Delete rear trans mount.
4. Provide flat surface 1.5" below the frame horns for skid plate mounting.
5. Cheap.
Please forgive my CAD program... it's a little dated.
Inside cage (minimal)
So... My plan.
Use a 1.5 x .120 (green) sqaure tube under the existing frame horns extending to approx 15" in front of the torsion tube angled under the tunnel and attached with direct weld where able but also .120 bar to side of existing frame horns. Strong attatchment bracket on rear of frame horns. Add a 1" square tube (unknown thickness, red) under tension to rear roll bar mount plate. Another 1" sqaure tube (under compression, blue) to top of frame horn in order to stiffen rear roll bar mount and support weight. Future plan might be to tie the front of this beam into the main hoop behind the front seats with diagnal bracing.
Engine mount will be with urethane bushing (yellow) built into it's own crossmember that rides on top of green tube and attatches with two bolts from top to bottom. It will also attatch sit level with the main beam and attatch to the skid plates. Engine load will be caltelevered out by approx 3 inches.
Purple tube to shock mount... I was thinking that this tube would support the triangle (blue,red,green) in the lateral direction. And maybe, with future bracing become a bump stop. I could delete this purple tube and run a tension member (flat bar)across and over the transmission to the other rear cage mount to serve the same purpose of supporting the triangle.
The rear cage will attatch to the end of the green tube, but I would like to support most, if not all, of the load without it.
Okay It's backyard engineered, but it just might work.
Any thoughts on tube size/thickness, overall design, etc. Please speak up. Is this overkill, not strong enough? I'm going to buy some steel on Thursday.
Bonus question. .. If I used a 2" beam, do you think I could delete the frame horns altogether?
I've been working on a way to strengthen my engine mounts and could use your input.
Goals:
1. Fits my skills and tools (square tube mitered or straight round tube)
2. Able to remove engine and trans together with pallet jack (removable crossmember)
3. use subaru engine mount locations. Delete rear trans mount.
4. Provide flat surface 1.5" below the frame horns for skid plate mounting.
5. Cheap.
Please forgive my CAD program... it's a little dated.
Inside cage (minimal)
So... My plan.
Use a 1.5 x .120 (green) sqaure tube under the existing frame horns extending to approx 15" in front of the torsion tube angled under the tunnel and attached with direct weld where able but also .120 bar to side of existing frame horns. Strong attatchment bracket on rear of frame horns. Add a 1" square tube (unknown thickness, red) under tension to rear roll bar mount plate. Another 1" sqaure tube (under compression, blue) to top of frame horn in order to stiffen rear roll bar mount and support weight. Future plan might be to tie the front of this beam into the main hoop behind the front seats with diagnal bracing.
Engine mount will be with urethane bushing (yellow) built into it's own crossmember that rides on top of green tube and attatches with two bolts from top to bottom. It will also attatch sit level with the main beam and attatch to the skid plates. Engine load will be caltelevered out by approx 3 inches.
Purple tube to shock mount... I was thinking that this tube would support the triangle (blue,red,green) in the lateral direction. And maybe, with future bracing become a bump stop. I could delete this purple tube and run a tension member (flat bar)across and over the transmission to the other rear cage mount to serve the same purpose of supporting the triangle.
The rear cage will attatch to the end of the green tube, but I would like to support most, if not all, of the load without it.
Okay It's backyard engineered, but it just might work.
Any thoughts on tube size/thickness, overall design, etc. Please speak up. Is this overkill, not strong enough? I'm going to buy some steel on Thursday.
Bonus question. .. If I used a 2" beam, do you think I could delete the frame horns altogether?
Last edited by TimS on Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.
- TimS
- Posts: 5723
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:11 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Well... The only way to get any advise in an online forum is to screw something up, so here is my best efforts.
Cleansing the palette...
My way of staying on schedule... If summer comes, the buckets collapse.
Cleansing the palette...
My way of staying on schedule... If summer comes, the buckets collapse.
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.
-
- Posts: 1574
- Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:08 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
It looks like your current setup was solid mounted, don't mix and match urethane with solid mounts, do one or the other. I'm not too keen on eliminating the bell-housing mount, how are you going to mount the transmission nose?
- TimS
- Posts: 5723
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:11 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Thanks for your input.winifredevw wrote:It looks like your current setup was solid mounted, don't mix and match urethane with solid mounts, do one or the other. I'm not too keen on eliminating the bell-housing mount, how are you going to mount the transmission nose?
One of my main objectives was to get rid of the bell housing mount. The reason is that if I took a big hig in the rear, the engine trans system would give instead of tweaking it. That is how it's mounted in the stock subaru (nose of trans and engine mount). It actually balances really well. Maybe I could use the "dog ears" for the bellhousing mount?
Front mount is urethane inside 1.5" .120 tube (from 10 degree kit), rear side mounts will each be same size, same compound as front.
EDIT--> There is about 40 lbs on front mount, balance on rears.
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.
-
- Posts: 1574
- Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:08 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Have you seen Big Dave's mounts yet? It's awfully close to what you're describing.
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php ... nt#p998528
The nose on a VW trans is notoriously weak, a good mid-mount would be the minimum I would even consider if eliminating the bell-housing mount.
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php ... nt#p998528
The nose on a VW trans is notoriously weak, a good mid-mount would be the minimum I would even consider if eliminating the bell-housing mount.
- Leatherneck
- Moderator
- Posts: 17104
- Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:47 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
There are several mid tranny and bell housing mounts in the build threads. Yes look at bigdaves, Skidmark, winifredevw, hedrock, there are more.
- TimS
- Posts: 5723
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:11 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Ahhh.... Thanks... that's why I like these forums. Back to the drawing board.winifredevw wrote:The nose on a VW trans is notoriously weak, a good mid-mount would be the minimum I would even consider if eliminating the bell-housing mount.
edit-->. just read through big dave's build, don't know how I missed that. Thanks for the link. I'll chew on that for a day or two. You're right, almost exactly what I was thinking. Hopefully I can execute it half as well.
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.
- TimS
- Posts: 5723
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:11 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Okay... Ordered a mid mount piece for $15, would take me lots more time to make one.
I think I'm going to keep the nose cone mount and add the mid mount, delete the bellhousing mount, and make the engine mounts...
I think I'm going to keep the nose cone mount and add the mid mount, delete the bellhousing mount, and make the engine mounts...
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.
- Big Dave
- Posts: 3208
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 4:31 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
I'm curious why you want to be able to remove the engine and trans as a unit. Are you expecting to break that many transaxles?
The two bolted together seems kind of unwieldy. Trying to get it balanced to slide it in and out seems difficult IMO.
I put my trans in by itself, and its kind of a PITA to get everything lined up. Bolting up the engine only takes 20 minutes. I can remove the engine and trans in about an hour by myself with a floor jack. The rear cage ads another hour
The two bolted together seems kind of unwieldy. Trying to get it balanced to slide it in and out seems difficult IMO.
I put my trans in by itself, and its kind of a PITA to get everything lined up. Bolting up the engine only takes 20 minutes. I can remove the engine and trans in about an hour by myself with a floor jack. The rear cage ads another hour
I don't always show my signature. But when I do, it's in this area.
- TimS
- Posts: 5723
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:11 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Well... Because I have a pallet jack and not a engine hoist. Or that I don't really have any good "lifters" to call for help. Or maybe I'm just strange. No, don't expect to break alot. Maybe I'm just dreaming. I'm seriously considering keeping the bellhousing mount because I'm going to have to order more urethane bushings anyway. Just kicking myself for cutting the horn mounts already.Big Dave wrote:I'm curious why you want to be able to remove the engine and trans as a unit. Are you expecting to break that many transaxles?
The two bolted together seems kind of unwieldy. Trying to get it balanced to slide it in and out seems difficult IMO.
I put my trans in by itself, and its kind of a PITA to get everything lined up. Bolting up the engine only takes 20 minutes. I can remove the engine and trans in about an hour by myself with a floor jack. The rear cage ads another hour
I like your setup - nose, mid, bellhousing, and engine, but I worry about bumping my butt and tweaking my cobbled together metal work, and tweaking the engine beyond my means to fix it.
Oh, did I tell you I think too much?
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.
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- Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:08 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Think of your trans/engine mounts as a cradle, they're just there to hold the drivetrain in place.
Your rear-cage/framehorn should be strong enough that you don't worry about breaking trans or engine cases, even when you hit your butt.
Your rear-cage/framehorn should be strong enough that you don't worry about breaking trans or engine cases, even when you hit your butt.
- TimS
- Posts: 5723
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:11 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Good point... I'm starting to see that. I measured the "sag" with 200lbs on one frame horn (me). It sags 0.1 inches (dial guage to floor), and it's not welded all the way yet. I had calculated a 0.05 flex in the beam at 1000lbs. Should stiffen up with the rear supports and once I weld up in front of the torsion housing.winifredevw wrote:Think of your trans/engine mounts as a cradle, they're just there to hold the drivetrain in place.
Your rear-cage/framehorn should be strong enough that you don't worry about breaking trans or engine cases, even when you hit your butt.
I think I'm going to go for the four mounts. Thanks for helping me with get my mind straight. Probably seems like simple fab work to some, but for me... I'm still excited that I can melt metal together
Pardon the "Look, I melted something together" picture, but Look, I melted something together! (and much better than last year) Got my frame horns done all the way around, I had previously just done a few stiches.
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.
- TimS
- Posts: 5723
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:11 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Yes... I was thinking of this all wrong. Thanks again.... "engine cradle".
I'm hoping that I can fit the urethane bushings on the mid mount under the trans, otherwise I'll be re-plumbing the brake lines
still have to clean and redo a few spots. The X is made from some 1" scrap and goes almost directly under the bellhousing and ends just in front of the subaru oil pan right where the motor mounts will be, also will reinforce the skid plates nicely.
I'm hoping that I can fit the urethane bushings on the mid mount under the trans, otherwise I'll be re-plumbing the brake lines
still have to clean and redo a few spots. The X is made from some 1" scrap and goes almost directly under the bellhousing and ends just in front of the subaru oil pan right where the motor mounts will be, also will reinforce the skid plates nicely.
Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.
- Skidmark
- Posts: 3506
- Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:19 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
I hope you planned the position of that cross brace with your trans drain plug in mind.... just sayin'...
"Your car sounds angry, and it wants to go fast all the time..."
(quote from my daughter, after driving my car)
It's not complicated, it's just expensive...
(quote from my daughter, after driving my car)
It's not complicated, it's just expensive...
- TimS
- Posts: 5723
- Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:11 pm
Re: Subaru engine mount... project.
Hey Skid... You know me well ... Nope, forgot that.... BUT - The drain plug sits directly above the "X" so I'll have to be sure to put "possible frame drip" on the reciept. I looked at it last night and thought, "That's a good spot" after everything was welded.Skidmark wrote:I hope you planned the position of that cross brace with your trans drain plug in mind.... just sayin'...
Been working on the mounts but mostly waiting for UPS...
2x3's today
mid mount tomorrow
Urethane and Steering damper next week
Sooo... I already told you that I think too much.... And I have much time waiting on parts... And I needed a way to keep rotational loads off a HALF of a urethane bushing (because I won't be able to use a rear tab) while allowing it to be installed from an odd angle (so I don't have to trim my frame horn flanges flush)... Here is the latest from the "poor boy" machine shop. The bolt will hold it to the tab, and the tab will hold the bushing straight. Hardened them in the fireplace (and my leftover coffee to quench )last night.
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Don’t ever yield your gift of dream; Your knack for gumption, too. For “It’s the crazy ones that have all the fun," if dreamers yearn to do.