Finally broke my spindle

[Piledriver]

Has anyone ever tried stub hubs up front?(like on some trailers or on rear end of many FWD vans and cars?)

Sealed bearings, machine a locating recess in the face of the steering knucle (in place of spindle, may be able to move up or down someas well) fast change out and cheap/common factory parts?

I'm sure some of them are much stronger than the stock axles, at least.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

http://www.1aauto.com/wheel-bearing-and ... ontent=SHF

'Pile, are you talking about something like this? The spindle would have to be modified to take the bolt in part but Ford and some of the others have gone to this. I have had one, so far, go south on me. They are kind of heavy too.

Edited to correct spelling, change one word and add punctuation to make the sentence clear.

[Piledriver]

Yes, Almost exactly as microstub hub, but w/o the stub axle.
(unless you want a AWD buggy)

I'm sort of working through that weird idea I had for using (or making) a Weissach rear axle setup for a mid engined road going TOW'D.(think retro Ariel Atom)
(except scaled to replace a T1 trailing arm length wise, so it could fit in a T1/T3, but it could be made ~any length, it's essentially just a length of ~2" tube, could be aluminum, just a locating link, also uses 2 lateral links for horizontal location)

The trailing arm with microstubs (sans axle) would weigh about 15 pounds, and a set of vented Wilwood ultralight rear rotors and IMCA steel hats cost about the same as stock 914 rotors. and alloy calipers would only add about 10 lbs more total.

This idea is mostly a mind exersize in simplicity/light weight and not needing wheel adapters, using an off-the-shelf hub/bearing setup.

This hub/bearing is for a Chrysler minivan, for example, is axle/bearings and hub, some other types don't have as large of a locating spud. Weight wise it would probably be a wash vs vw parts, due to the hole in the steering knuckle and lighter wheel hub. There may be aluminum versions out there, too if one was on a light weight kick.
The Ford Crown Vic units are very similar.

Does anyone make T1 VW front wheel hubs in aluminum for a reasonable price?
(I may just cut down factory dsics to make a hub, but alloy hubs would be nice, these are sexy, for sprint cars)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Winters-Gol ... 1588238413
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wilwood-Disc-Br ... 1b&vxp=mtr

[Piledriver]

OK, I am now the owner of a pile of Willwood sprint car F&R hubs and ultralight discs to match the RX7 calipers I picked up, with big reds out back (if I don't find something slightly smaller/lighter, it's already ungodly overkill)

Who sells 2" hollow spindle spuds? (same as combo spindles?)
(I can get whole CrMo sprint car front spindles for ~$40, but it looks like such a waste to cut up)

Will need to adapt the rears somehow, but the whole setup w/drive flanges was about what the front hubs would have cost new.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I've seen them advertised before but so far:

http://www.mooreparts.com/store/search.asp

http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?

http://www.mckenzies.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1838

http://www.sandparts.com/servlet/the-11 ... uds/Detail

Maybe there is something in here.

Lee

[Piledriver]

Been looking there, I was hoping to find one that had ~12-15mm+ spud on the back so I could mill the factory spindle, press fit and weld the spud on the front and back, maintaining factory++ strength.
All these seem to have a little 1/4" weld flange, so the only thing keeping it on/aligned is weld.

The rear ones for sprint cars are thru-tubes, will look at those, not sure they are 2" tho, think they are 2.5" for axle clearance.

(EDIT: The ones at McKenzies look like they'll do the trick)

[Ol'fogasaurus]

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=wel ... &FORM=IGRE

Did a quick Bing search on weld on combo spindle spuds and got this. Don't know if it will help but more look-sees.

[Piledriver]

I simply ordered a set of used (non staggered) 2" tubular L/R spindles, I can easily plasma remove the offending parts of the rest of it and turn them down, they appear have a nice very long spud the rest of it is welded to. Shipped (with a third repaired one) they cost less than one weld on spud, which is ~ridiculous.

OTOH the whole shebang may prove useful.

Now I just have to figure out if I can adapt the rears...

So far, I'm into it for the cost of 2 new wide5 hubs and ulralight rotors, shipped.

Of course I'll need wheels, but IIRC the wide5 setup is AFAICT 5x260.4, but it's very likely I could rework the hubs to 5x205 in a few minutes on the lathe and mill after work.

OTOH wide5 steel shells and centers are ~cheap,, but I'm not sure how much offset is usable given the brake size and 15" (std size) wheels.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

What about caster/scrub radius with added offset?

Lee

[Piledriver]

Depends on many variables, and the target vehicle will weigh ~1000 lbs wet.

The factory Wilwood wide5 back offset is ~3.5", vs ~2.25 for a T3 (The only spare spindles/rotors I have to measure)
An extra inch of backspacing on the required new wheels should deal with that, not including kingpin inclination, which is ~ zero stock but can put the pivot point well outboard on a custom setup.
~Centered is best, right?

Early>89 911 hub is 3.5" to face of seal, 914 is likely close.

Also, may try these on the squareback first as I have a spare front end, and I may only be able to use the hubs for the front, unless I can come up with a method of reliably using them as rear hubs with CVs/stubs.
Perhaps a 2 1/2" tube CrMo drive hub as a inner drive hub, centering rings replacing the bearings, 8 bolt drive hub outside. Would need custom axle nuts or modified 914 stub with 30mm nut...
I'd prefer something keeping the bearings in the hub but haven't figured out how to couple that with a CV joint. Yet.

Perhaps I'm overthinking it and just need a long stub secured to the outer 8 bolt drive flange, with a clip on CV drive flange on the inner.
(Think modified axle)

EDIT: The thing I like most about staying wide5 (5x10.5") is a that a 16"x7" aluminum wheel weighs ~<9 pounds.
The (light) hub essentially is the wheels center.

[dustymojave]

But even "lightweight" Wide 5 hubs for circle track are WAY heavier than the center of a small 5 wheel. There's a lot of metal in one of them. For an accurate comparison of weight, you need to compare everything off of the spindle: wheel rim, hub, bearings, brake hat, brake rotor, caliper, caliper bracket, Bearing cap, bearing retainer nut...The whole shebang...A customer's car back in the 80's was going to get wide 5s over the offseason, until I picked up one of the aluminum wide 5 hubs. We started piling parts on a scale and the hub conversion project was canned. I'm not saying "Don't do it!" i'm saying to keep your mind open and check things out before plunking down your plastic.

[Piledriver]

Did you have a wide5 wheel on hand when you made the measurements?

Don't have the parts on hand to bolt together and weigh yet, but it looks like ~wash at worst from the mfr spec weights, and so much stronger as to be ridiculous.

...There is an ~equivalent mass in a small hub wheel that is simply not present in a Wide5.
(Not talking 5x205 VW wide 5, just for folks just trying to follow along, but even those have some advantage)

wide5.jpeg

A 15X10 wide5 (5x260.3 IIRC) wheel from most manfacturers is ~2/3 the weight of a 5x5 equaivalent...
The 16x7s I'm looking at weigh 8 pounds.
The 9 pound hub/bearing setup is "free", or at least very lowfat if you pretend it is the wheel center.
(Which it actually is)

If I went with typical ricer cast wheels 5x100, they are insanely heavy lumps.
(The 18x7 "Detroit" wheels on GTis are 27 pounds. Each. By themselves, no tires, about what the 5.5 Mahles with the 205-60 Toyos weigh on my Squareback)

The front cast iron discs/calipers I'm running now weigh appx what this 11 3/4" x1.25" vented 4 piston setup will...
...before I get to the wheels.

On a 15 or 16x4 wide 5 the weight is ~half a full disc wheel, and considerably stronger.
(based on any of the specs from Weld et al, who make all styles)

I'm looking at the complete redesigned rear axle setup with trailing arm all being ~1/2 stock T1 VW weight or less, even considering the average moving mass.
With 11 3/4" vented rotors and all. And rear steer.(Porsche 928 style) ...and stronger.

Still trying to grok the best way to do make a stub axle through shaft., may become clear when I have the parts in hand later this week.

And you are right, those hubs have a lot of extra meat for dealing with 15" wide slicks and 3000 lb 700 HP vehicles.
Gotta count the 9 pound wheel tho. (hub forms >90% of the wheel center, so consider at typical 16x8s 18 lbs (or more) with a smaller but non-zero weight cast iron or CrMo hub)

It adds up, but you have to add it ALL up, CV out to the tires.. Not yet proven to be a win, but it will certainly be very,very serious overkill, and will look killer all polished up.

Besides, it was such a smokin deal, once cleaned up I could flip it for ~double, locally.
The finned alloy RX7 calipers alone go for serious $$$ rebuilt.

I'll start a thread when they show up and document everything, probably in suspension forum, as there is much more to it than the hubs, and the target use is carving asphalt on a 300HP, 900 lb car at snake belly ride height.

I may ditch the vented rotors and go with the even lighter solids at that point, as a 900 lb car probably doesn't need Hand Of God level braking.

[Piledriver]

Finally found the long wide5 spindle blanks...
(2" hollow)

http://www.allstarperformance.com/product.htm?prod=421

There is a left and a right...

It looks like you could just about build ~any type of racing chassis mostly out of their catalog.

[Piledriver]

But even "lightweight" Wide 5 hubs for circle track are WAY heavier than the center of a small 5 wheel. There's a lot of metal in one of them. For an accurate comparison of weight, you need to compare everything off of the spindle: wheel rim, hub, bearings, brake hat, brake rotor, caliper, caliper bracket, Bearing cap, bearing retainer nut...The whole shebang...A customer's car back in the 80's was going to get wide 5s over the offseason, until I picked up one of the aluminum wide 5 hubs. We started piling parts on a scale and the hub conversion project was canned. I'm not saying "Don't do it!" i'm saying to keep your mind open and check things out before plunking down your plastic.

I call.
That may have been true in the 80s, but it doesn't jibe with what I have piled up on the scale.

You do realize those huge hubs are big hollow aluminum baloons?
I did the math before plunking down the plastic, but now that I have metal in hand I can be certain....

Got all the bits today, did some quick calculations based on actual and wheel advertised weights:

Wilwood (old school 8 bolt. ~1lb heavier than the new 55s) wide5 hub, matching REAL 15x7 wheel, wilwood ultralight 11.75x.81 rotor, RX7 alloy calipers w/pads:
~34 lbs (298mm X 20.5mm)
(7+7.5+8.1,11.1 ignoring bolts still in the mail, )

Stock late T3 front rotor, lightest centerline 4 lug wheel i could find (15x7) stock T3 front calipers w/pads:
36.3 lb
(15.9, 12.6, 7,8)

Yep, the enormous hubs/bearings/brakes/rotors/calipers weigh 2 lb LESS than the unvented tiny factory discs.
Even allowing for a heavier spindle/bearing set and some bolts, it's a wash at worst.
And a replacement Wilwood rotor is 50-70% cheaper than a new stocker.

I didn't feel like dragging in a stock 5.5 steel wheel for additional comparative data, but I'm sure its in the ~25 lb range.

Willfully ignoring the wheels, the 11.75" wide 5 setup weighs a tad more, but that would be IMHO a foolish comparison as wide5 wheels have almost no center, the huge, hollow hub is the wheel center for all intents an purposes.
A Basset STEEL 15x10 wide5 weighs in a ~18.5 pounds, 5-8 pounds lighter than a stock steel VW rim.

It gets better:
If I went with equivalent size Wilwood Dynalight forged aluminum 4 piston [email protected] lbs, the weight difference is
~10 lbs less unsprung per wheel vs. stock.
(only $134 list, smokin deal vs questionable used Big Reds @stupid$$)
... all else being as equal as possible.

On the rears, you could easily go with inboard brakes, but a very light solid unvented disc would probably work for for that app outboard.

The 4 pot BMW iron calipers I'm running currently are noticeably heavier than stock t3 ones, so it's likely significantly more savings.

Compared to the ultra light stock T1 drums, ~any discs are going to be heavier, unless you simply mount some narrow aluminum calipers on the stock unvented disc, which would likely be great for light duty ~100 mph road racing use with <130 HP.
Even that setup is much heavier than stock drums.

They make the wide5s down to 4" wide as well... I guesstimate in aluminum they weigh ~5ish pounds, beadlocks a bit more.

[Steve Arndt]

Since the subject of the original thread was broken wimpy link pin spindles when off road riding (speedo cable hole creates a high stress area), what are you trying to accomplish Pile? Your car is ball joint so it has strong spindles already. You don't offroad, so you don't break spindles. Maybe a new thread in the suspension sub forum for your custom build would be appropriate.

I am still considering cutting the ball joint sized spindle stubs off a standard T1 ball joint spindle set, and welding them on to a link pin knuckle. That would get rid of the weak small diameter stub and bearings from the earlier setup and upgrade it to the much stronger 66-77 upgraded sizing. Sort of an intermediate state between early link pin, and full on combo sized while retaining speedometer hole use.

Someone mentioned earlier that aftermarket combo spindles could be center drilled for the speedo cable. Since I don't have a set of those I can't exactly picture if the cable has room to roam where it exits from the inside.