so i plan on doing something similar to yours im keeping the body on id like to have the body removable but idk how i would do that as im going through the firewall. also i see you have the top beam support as a down tube from a different tube. Is there a reason for this? i like my idea of having the one tube from beam to b hoop.no1clyde wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:55 pm Sand the spindle with emery cloth after you get the bearing off to make it go on nicer.
Here is my car with no body (yes it is a Baja Bug) or the front bumper on it, but I did just drive it around the block in this pic
I have never built a cage before but I did build this one and this car has done very well for me. I drove it 1500 miles on the Grand Canyon Adv and 1000 miles on the Elko to Bodie Adv, Not recommending you do it like this but I am showing you what can be done and I am very happy with my car.
Ed
68 baja build
- bikesndbugs
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Re: 68 baja build
Travis
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Re: 68 baja build
I have a tube going down to the beam and then braced with more tube. I was just building what felt good to me LOL. I will try to find a earlier pic for you.
This is how I did it, just worked out this way.
My beam is homemade like most of my car. I am using a Saginaw steering box out of a 1970 Chevy pickup.
Ed
This is how I did it, just worked out this way.
My beam is homemade like most of my car. I am using a Saginaw steering box out of a 1970 Chevy pickup.
Ed
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Re: 68 baja build
very interesting i just see that style of beam support a lot on baja bugs the tube goes above it supports the bumper then has a diagonal down to the beam. vs my design that is more buggy style. just interesting seeing the different designs it fascinates me so your body comes off and the cage stays howed you do that with a firewall just cut it off? the more custom stuff i do on my car the more i like it. i like that steering boxno1clyde wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:39 pm I have a tube going down to the beam and then braced with more tube. I was just building what felt good to me LOL. I will try to find a earlier pic for you.
This is how I did it, just worked out this way.
My beam is homemade like most of my car. I am using a Saginaw steering box out of a 1970 Chevy pickup.
Ed
Travis
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Re: 68 baja build
Travis is my build, the pics start on page 34 I think. The first pics were lost in the forum upgrade but maybe you should read thru, everything on this car is covered in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=145550
The car is in my shop getting a front suspension change and we flooded last month so I now have a lot more work to do before this summer but it will be ready.
Ed
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=145550
The car is in my shop getting a front suspension change and we flooded last month so I now have a lot more work to do before this summer but it will be ready.
Ed
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Re: 68 baja build
good to look at ive been trying to google tube front end for beams. but i haven't had much luck class 1/2 1600 looks similar to your upper beam support. also looked up class 5 and 9 the front looks like yours. my friends dad had that design but with my weird bent tube. gonna try to make a design with that style now run it past some peopleno1clyde wrote: ↑Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:48 am Travis is my build, the pics start on page 34 I think. The first pics were lost in the forum upgrade but maybe you should read thru, everything on this car is covered in this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=145550
The car is in my shop getting a front suspension change and we flooded last month so I now have a lot more work to do before this summer but it will be ready.
Ed
As you can see on cwbs the tube that comes from the "a" hoop goes above the beam to the bumper and a down tube to the beam rather than straight to the beam. i also see this in many crumco baja bugs. i would assume its stronger for the bumper but what about the beam.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... ?p=6599511
it is also done on this buggy. My cage idea is turning towards this more as it seems better for future wheelbase mod and a stronger bumper. Also whats the minimum cross bracing i can get away with in the front. probobly an x between the bottom tubes. the gas tank might be in the way for the top x. then a diagonal from either the top down or bottom up. I see alot of need for the second door bar but it seems like itd get in the way alot.
Travis
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Re: 68 baja build
new link pins and a rear seal kit have been ordered. The rear seal is just because im leaking gear oil. need boots too but im lagging on that. What do i need to swap the linkpin bushings?
The beam is almost completely apart the spindles are still hanging on the tie rods. Both drivers arms were bent and i have a bit of horizontal play in my lower leaf. seems like where it was drilled has gotten worn and has some play. its only 1/4 inch.
now to the important part my drivers spindle has gotten really tight to turn so thats either carrier or kingpin right? I have a passenger spindle assembly but thats no help now.
The beam is almost completely apart the spindles are still hanging on the tie rods. Both drivers arms were bent and i have a bit of horizontal play in my lower leaf. seems like where it was drilled has gotten worn and has some play. its only 1/4 inch.
now to the important part my drivers spindle has gotten really tight to turn so thats either carrier or kingpin right? I have a passenger spindle assembly but thats no help now.
Travis
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Re: 68 baja build
Beeline frames are also similar.
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Re: 68 baja build
I was looking at the car today looks like my design will work better space wise because the gas tank is there. The beam is straight but still have that tight spindle issue.
Travis
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- dustymojave
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Re: 68 baja build
Beam to torsion housing doesn't really need to be .120 wall. .095 will work fine. A and B pillar, top and rear braces out of .120 wall is fine. My cage is 1.75" x .120 B pillar hoop and rear braces, the rest is 1.5" x.095.
1.75" x .095 is stronger than 1.5" x .120 in bending, but weaker in impact.
As far as overall bracing, your description in words gets rather confused.
Pictures are worth thousands of words and get the idea across better than even more words can.
In those drawings of cages, note that the red bars represent those which are required for racing rules and are the bars that have to be of a specified diameter and wall thickness. Any and all other bars may be whatever size material you want or may be left out entirely.
Here's a picture inside the front of the 5-1600 Baja Bug class winner at the SNORE Battle @ Primm this past month. The front bumper got bent due to another racer (different class) cutting him off going into a turn then slamming the brakes on.
Note the upper tubes to the front bumper and the top of the beam that go back to the A-pillar. The upper tubes come forward from the A pillar and out to the bumper, with other shorter tubes going down to the beam. This is simpler fabrication than bending the upper tube to go down to the beam, then adding a tube out to the bumper.
Take a real good look at how this car is built in the front. Its a very well done car. There are a few tubes I would do different, but mostly I agree with it. It's arguably the fastest 5-1600 Baja out there. It just beat those who have been the fastest competition in the class for many years.
Getting those bent link pins out may require cutting the pins near the bushings, or driving the pins out WITH the bushings. Pins and bushings all need to be replaced now anyway. Good chance the links and kingpins with their bushings may need to be replaced as well. Stiff steering in that left spindle indicates that the king pin and/or link is bent.
1.75" x .095 is stronger than 1.5" x .120 in bending, but weaker in impact.
As far as overall bracing, your description in words gets rather confused.
Pictures are worth thousands of words and get the idea across better than even more words can.
In those drawings of cages, note that the red bars represent those which are required for racing rules and are the bars that have to be of a specified diameter and wall thickness. Any and all other bars may be whatever size material you want or may be left out entirely.
Here's a picture inside the front of the 5-1600 Baja Bug class winner at the SNORE Battle @ Primm this past month. The front bumper got bent due to another racer (different class) cutting him off going into a turn then slamming the brakes on.
Note the upper tubes to the front bumper and the top of the beam that go back to the A-pillar. The upper tubes come forward from the A pillar and out to the bumper, with other shorter tubes going down to the beam. This is simpler fabrication than bending the upper tube to go down to the beam, then adding a tube out to the bumper.
Take a real good look at how this car is built in the front. Its a very well done car. There are a few tubes I would do different, but mostly I agree with it. It's arguably the fastest 5-1600 Baja out there. It just beat those who have been the fastest competition in the class for many years.
Getting those bent link pins out may require cutting the pins near the bushings, or driving the pins out WITH the bushings. Pins and bushings all need to be replaced now anyway. Good chance the links and kingpins with their bushings may need to be replaced as well. Stiff steering in that left spindle indicates that the king pin and/or link is bent.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
Retired Fabricator
'58 Baja with 955K Miles and counting
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
Retired Fabricator
'58 Baja with 955K Miles and counting
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Re: 68 baja build
Also note the bumper/subframe exist to protect the car if at all possible, ideally it shouldn't trash the frame in a minor impact
Most dedicated road racing cars (and some very high end supercars) have a replaceable front "crashbox" designed to take the hit and preserve the core chassis (and occupants)
...Of course production cars since the 60s (perhaps earlier, IIRC Mercedes was first) have been designed for crash safety, folding up in a controlled manner--- its something to consider.
Most dedicated road racing cars (and some very high end supercars) have a replaceable front "crashbox" designed to take the hit and preserve the core chassis (and occupants)
...Of course production cars since the 60s (perhaps earlier, IIRC Mercedes was first) have been designed for crash safety, folding up in a controlled manner--- its something to consider.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Re: 68 baja build
YES!!!!Piledriver wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:47 pm Also note the bumper/subframe exist to protect the car if at all possible, ideally it shouldn't trash the frame in a minor impact
Most dedicated road racing cars (and some very high end supercars) have a replaceable front "crashbox" designed to take the hit and preserve the core chassis (and occupants)
...Of course production cars since the 60s (perhaps earlier, IIRC Mercedes was first) have been designed for crash safety, folding up in a controlled manner--- its something to consider.
I have for decades been puzzled why so many offroad racers build bumpers out of TIG welded 4130 when it would be more practical if it were heavy gauge non-galvanized fence pipe welded with a buzz box. A bumper should be disposable.
As for it failing before the rest of the car takes much damage, I agree whole heartedly. It should be bolted on like the one on the 5-16. So it's easy to replace.
The bumper and the structure of the car should also crumple in a controlled fashion in a serious impact. The cockpit should be the strongest part of the structure and last to fail. I see so many built with battering rams for bumpers and the cabin built weak so the bumper is stronger than the roll cage. I don't get that philosophy of build. Maybe, it's just not paying attention to engineering the whole structure.
I've built such collapsible structures for road racers before. There are multiple layers of collapsible structure in the front of this Corvette Group 5 (Trans Am/IMSA GTO). The aluminum bumper and radiator box, then the light steel box behind that, where the sway bar is mounted, then the stronger 3rd structure is the engine compartment where the suspension arms mount. Finally behind the engine is the cockpit. It's survived some pretty nasty crashes. Last time I worked on this car, I had to cut out frame members around the engine and replace them.
The front and rear bumpers on my Baja Bug are designed to be fairly strong, yet they have a fold point where they will give before the load damages the roll cage inside.
The front has a bend in the upper tube just ahead of the headlight mount to start a fold there.
The rear has a similar bend just where the upper tube passes out from under the rear fender. This will work with the lower bends to allow a controlled collapse as well.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
Retired Fabricator
'58 Baja with 955K Miles and counting
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
Retired Fabricator
'58 Baja with 955K Miles and counting
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Re: 68 baja build
Now if people would quit running into me was rear ended in the work van (again) a couple weeks ago in the rain.
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Re: 68 baja build
dustymojave wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:31 pm Beam to torsion housing doesn't really need to be .120 wall. .095 will work fine. A and B pillar, top and rear braces out of .120 wall is fine. My cage is 1.75" x .120 B pillar hoop and rear braces, the rest is 1.5" x.095.
1.75" x .095 is stronger than 1.5" x .120 in bending, but weaker in impact.
As far as overall bracing, your description in words gets rather confused.
Pictures are worth thousands of words and get the idea across better than even more words can.
In those drawings of cages, note that the red bars represent those which are required for racing rules and are the bars that have to be of a specified diameter and wall thickness. Any and all other bars may be whatever size material you want or may be left out entirely.
Here's a picture inside the front of the 5-1600 Baja Bug class winner at the SNORE Battle @ Primm this past month. The front bumper got bent due to another racer (different class) cutting him off going into a turn then slamming the brakes on.
Note the upper tubes to the front bumper and the top of the beam that go back to the A-pillar. The upper tubes come forward from the A pillar and out to the bumper, with other shorter tubes going down to the beam. This is simpler fabrication than bending the upper tube to go down to the beam, then adding a tube out to the bumper.
Take a real good look at how this car is built in the front. Its a very well done car. There are a few tubes I would do different, but mostly I agree with it. It's arguably the fastest 5-1600 Baja out there. It just beat those who have been the fastest competition in the class for many years.
Getting those bent link pins out may require cutting the pins near the bushings, or driving the pins out WITH the bushings. Pins and bushings all need to be replaced now anyway. Good chance the links and kingpins with their bushings may need to be replaced as well. Stiff steering in that left spindle indicates that the king pin and/or link is bent.
Pretty sure the king pin i bent got the link pins out one a a bend in it. Looking for a new spindle now as it will be easier than replacing the kingpin.
IM seeing the style you talk about the straight bumper tube with one down to the beam alot more looks like alot better idea. What im getting out of the .095 wall vs .120 and stronger cab is that basically evrything in the cab should be .120 wall and out of the cab should be .095. That creates a problem as Even if i were to do the upper tube to bumper and a separate down to the beam i would still want to bend it down from the b hoop. Is this just an all round bad design? Should i go with 2 seperate hoops like the drawing and then just weld in tubes that come off the front.
SO i understand build a weak point in the bumper so if you or something hits it IT will crumple and save the rest of the car didnt think of that but very smart. And the progressively get stronger and stronger inward to the car.dustymojave wrote:YES!!!!Piledriver wrote: ↑Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:47 pm Also note the bumper/subframe exist to protect the car if at all possible, ideally it shouldn't trash the frame in a minor impact
Most dedicated road racing cars (and some very high end supercars) have a replaceable front "crashbox" designed to take the hit and preserve the core chassis (and occupants)
...Of course production cars since the 60s (perhaps earlier, IIRC Mercedes was first) have been designed for crash safety, folding up in a controlled manner--- its something to consider.
I have for decades been puzzled why so many offroad racers build bumpers out of TIG welded 4130 when it would be more practical if it were heavy gauge non-galvanized fence pipe welded with a buzz box. A bumper should be disposable.
The front and rear bumpers on my Baja Bug are designed to be fairly strong, yet they have a fold point where they will give before the load damages the roll cage inside.
The front has a bend in the upper tube just ahead of the headlight mount to start a fold there.
The rear has a similar bend just where the upper tube passes out from under the rear fender. This will work with the lower bends to allow a controlled collapse as well.
Ive always liked dustys car i look at his build alot. SO dusty if you didnt have a panhead would you trust your car to hold the beam?
Travis
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Re: 68 baja build
little bit of a cage redesign.
the red tube might be one and i wanna put that blue tube in but it kills room. maybe the yellow to reinforce the bend in the door bar.
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Travis
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- dustymojave
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Re: 68 baja build
This post is mostly a copy of what I posted over on TOS earlier.
Red is made from 1 piece each side of car.
Going to under the dash and bending forward to the front bumper seems nice, but becomes VERY difficult to bend, with bends in several different planes. Plus cage needs vertical support in case of rollover. Not a lot of difference in strength if the A pillar is short from floor to under a forward bending upper a pillar or if the A pillar is 1 piece. But it's a whole lot easier to fabricate.
Blue in plan view is bottom. Use 1" Vee from beam to bottom front of tunnel. Put a piece of flat stock lie 1.5" x 1/8" welded across the bottom of the opening from cutting off the frame head. Weld the Vee to that. Then make a piece of 18 or 20ga sheet to close off the upper part of the tunnel. Screw it on and seal it so you can open it to get to your shift shaft.
Note that the bottom rails have a bend at the back that goes inward towards the center to meet the torsion housing inboard of the end forging. They also need to bend upward at the same point because the torsion housing is elevated above the floor. So the bend can be at the B pillar of the body, but needs to not be in a flat plane. The bend is inward and upward at once.
Orange in plan view is 1.5" upper front cross member and 1" Vee to dash bar/A pillar. There should also be another 1" vee forward from the center of that upper cross member out to the upper beam clamps.
In the side view, I moved where the bends are in the upper front bars to the bumper. The bends should be right at the front bulkhead. The blue diagonals I added should be 1". In the foot box and to the door bars.
And YES, I would trust the cagework to support the beam without the pan head.
Red is made from 1 piece each side of car.
Going to under the dash and bending forward to the front bumper seems nice, but becomes VERY difficult to bend, with bends in several different planes. Plus cage needs vertical support in case of rollover. Not a lot of difference in strength if the A pillar is short from floor to under a forward bending upper a pillar or if the A pillar is 1 piece. But it's a whole lot easier to fabricate.
Blue in plan view is bottom. Use 1" Vee from beam to bottom front of tunnel. Put a piece of flat stock lie 1.5" x 1/8" welded across the bottom of the opening from cutting off the frame head. Weld the Vee to that. Then make a piece of 18 or 20ga sheet to close off the upper part of the tunnel. Screw it on and seal it so you can open it to get to your shift shaft.
Note that the bottom rails have a bend at the back that goes inward towards the center to meet the torsion housing inboard of the end forging. They also need to bend upward at the same point because the torsion housing is elevated above the floor. So the bend can be at the B pillar of the body, but needs to not be in a flat plane. The bend is inward and upward at once.
Orange in plan view is 1.5" upper front cross member and 1" Vee to dash bar/A pillar. There should also be another 1" vee forward from the center of that upper cross member out to the upper beam clamps.
In the side view, I moved where the bends are in the upper front bars to the bumper. The bends should be right at the front bulkhead. The blue diagonals I added should be 1". In the foot box and to the door bars.
And YES, I would trust the cagework to support the beam without the pan head.
Richard
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
Retired Fabricator
'58 Baja with 955K Miles and counting
Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
Speed Kills! but then...So does OLD AGE!!
Tech Inspection: SCCA / SCORE / HDRA / ARVRA / A.R.T.S. OffRoad Race Tech - MDR, MORE, Glen Helen BajaCup
Retired Fabricator
'58 Baja with 955K Miles and counting