1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:16 am

Thanks, i will read into that tonight.

Clone, how far is your fan from your intercooler?
Better to be blown than to suck!

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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:39 am

Made a flange for the throttle body
Image

Made 1 bracket for the intercooler, now i can take measurements for the other mounting points.

Verry productive day!

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woodsbuggy1
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by woodsbuggy1 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:21 pm

Looking Great!!
Good quality is getting harder and harder to find.

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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Clonebug » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:44 pm

rubenski wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:16 am
Thanks, i will read into that tonight.

Clone, how far is your fan from your intercooler?
Between a quarter and a half inch maybe.......
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:51 pm

Okay, thanks!

Is it mounted on an open bracket like mine or fully enclosed in a shroud?
Better to be blown than to suck!

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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:03 am

I spent a bit of time on this this am as this is a curious question.

I've seen pix of intercoolers similar to what you are doing but nothing about clearances of the fan to the radiator. Saw a lot about remote fans (sometimes an oval tube works better than a round tube :shock: ) but again, nothing like what you are trying to do. I then switch to oil cooler fan placement and although they are similar, fan placement doesn't seem to be a covered topic. Your question seems to be unique... so far.

Again, too close to the radiator can cause "dead spots" for the fan to work properly. One of the posts on oil coolers talked about adding "shims" to the fan but no dimensions given there.

I also saw a mention of "shrouds" but that was about it. Again, most of the talk was on remote then ducted to the cooler fans.

Lee

Addendum scenario: If you place a running fan close to and facing a solid wall you will feel the moving air blown back; if you put that fan facing a mesh screen you will still feel some blow back. A radiator is not a solid wall nor a mesh screen but the holes between the tubes is where the air has to go through is going to not as free as the mesh might give.

The blow back, as I understand it, can cause dead areas (air flowing in two opposing directions) which is one of the problems that water pumpers have been dealing with for years hence the need for the gap.

Again, I am not an engineer nor do I know everything (I wish I did) but I have played with water pumpers for many years and hung out with a lot of Rodders during that period of time. There is passing air and there is passing air and I am not talking about one of them :wink: .
Last edited by Ol'fogasaurus on Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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WickedWagens
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by WickedWagens » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:00 pm

Those fans have their own shroud built onto them, so I would think you are ok. The fans are pulling air through the intercooler from top to bottom correct?
1968 Karmann Ghia land speed
G/CFALT 106.643 MPH G/CGALT 113.131 MPH
G/CBGALT 134.606 MPH G/CBFALT 146.715 MPH
G/CBGC 158.242 MPH H/CBGC 94.334 MPH
H/CPRO 93.383 MPH H/CBFALT 101.282 MPH
H/CBGALT 120.591 MPH
Top Speed 161.896 MPH

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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:28 pm

Thanks for the info Lee!

It's really crazy that so few info is available on this topic.
Maybe i can measure the distance on some stock normal cars with intercoolers & fans.

I stopped by my engine builder today to let him check it out in person.
He also said the bracket was nice and the gap will give no issues.

Wickedwagons, the air is indeed coming from the top, with air getting sucked -down- trough it.

The air blowing down will maybe help clearing the heat from the engine that will rise from the engine running. (In city trafic or some trafic jams)

I got some pigtails from CB to get the fans controlled from the ECU (trough a relay)

I made some more sturdy brackets to hold the intercooler up.

Hopefully i will get my stainless and alloy piping and bends so i can give the turbo, TB, wastegate, BOV..... a place.



Oh boy, I feel like I'm running out of room. Its gonna be a tight fit. Even in this open ended buggy.

I want it to look good and sexy.
I looooooooove clean engine bays!
Better to be blown than to suck!

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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:50 pm

"Wickedwagons, the air is indeed coming from the top, with air getting sucked -down- trough it."

My bad, I had assumed that this was a "draw through" situation based on what you showed... I goofed!. Being you have an open rear like my blue buggy and unlike a bug then I would be sure to do the "Cotton Yarn" scenario all around the area to see what is happening to the air-flow where the "box" is (I didn't pay good attention I guess) as you will need a good constant airflow with no dead areas so don't assume like I did :lol: :oops: .

Lee

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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:33 pm

draw through shroud copy.jpg
Rubenski, since this is drawthrough setup and seeing what you have done already could you make a design change and basically build a more of a box shaped shroud with the fans located pretty much like you have them. By a shroud I mean a box but not with a flat top but with a small dome shape (kind of) to it.

Look at the motor size and their "C-channel" shape would probably create a very low "pull"/airflow area. The mount itself covers a lot of the radiators area again with again maybe a low airflow area. The open areas would be deriving no or not much pull from the fans.

The box would have to be high/tall enough to allow the fans to pull a lot of air through the whole area of the radiator.

Just some thoughts.

Lee
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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:10 pm

Oh boy, you kiddin?

I think that with the whole surface on the top being free I get quite alot of air exposure.

But i do follow your theory.

I need a good night sleep to think this over.

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rubenski
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by rubenski » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:21 pm

Like this? Or farther back and make a shaved pyramid shaped box? With the fans more down?



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WickedWagens
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by WickedWagens » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:31 pm

You could always try it as is and see how it does. There may be a better way to do it, but you don't know if it is needed. It might take care of your intake temps as is and you can put the time into finishing other things.
1968 Karmann Ghia land speed
G/CFALT 106.643 MPH G/CGALT 113.131 MPH
G/CBGALT 134.606 MPH G/CBFALT 146.715 MPH
G/CBGC 158.242 MPH H/CBGC 94.334 MPH
H/CPRO 93.383 MPH H/CBFALT 101.282 MPH
H/CBGALT 120.591 MPH
Top Speed 161.896 MPH

Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:09 pm

You are "quick as a bunny" making the changes. Good job!

The main thing might be to close the gaps around the edge's perimeter as the fan could draw air from the outside instead of through the radiator. A thick gasket might work also depending on how much pressure is ther (probably not much so it would be OK). We just discovered an improper miss-use of a O-ring; it was thought that the air tank had cracked and were pulling it down to see if we could weld it. It drove us crazy until I got my hand in the right spot and the sound of the escaping air changed. The O-ring blow out area looked like the edge of a black gasket.

The pyramid vs. flat shape is to stop the bouncing around of air, giving it a "flow", as it is drawn thought the radiator. Kind of like how the bottom of a sink is shaped so water flows out on its own. Simple but not always thought of.
stiffening bends.jpg
I posted this not too long ago. It shows how to make a box and shows the corner reliefs which are important; they can be welded shut after forming.. As far as the bends go you have to trim the meeting sides of the flange back to allow each side to not interfere with each other. I spent the first 2 or so years as a drafter drawing up this and other kinds of flat pattern (something "pattern makers" did at the shop. Current versions of CAD changed all that.).

There are "tricks" to just about everything.

Lee
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Re: 1641 Turbo EFI Manx. Stage 2: Mockup!

Post by panel » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:07 pm

rubenski wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:32 pm
Ps, Panel, I know you dont like cb's products, but i bought injectors, end castings and injector hardware ALL at a different place.
Nothing to blame them for.
When you combine stuff from here and there, somethings will have to be modified.
I like their stuff.......used to have a really well built turbo Hideaway header and CB044 heads from them. I just thought that the kit you bought from them was a total package and couldn't believe that some huge company would sell products to the public that don't work. Thanks for clearing it up :)

On another note.......what size and where did you get those fans?
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