Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
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- Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:31 am
Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
Howdy everyone! I am new on here but I have been around quite a bit on thesamba (is it forbidden to say that name here? ) and know my way pretty well around air cooled vw's. The one part that I have very little experiance in is the motor. I have worked ON the motor (valves, timing, carbs, distributors, cooling, etc) but I, personally, have never touched the inside of an air cooled motor. That is probably because I am 17 years old! I have done lots of reading and know that there is more than one way to fry this egg... but I am going to ask anyways!
I am looking to take my daily driven 1971 karmann ghia from DD status to lesser used car. Even when DD-ing my ghia, I put only about 5000 miles a year (and that is going EVERYWHERE with this car). That being said, this is basically me lining up my priorities on what I would like this motor to do. I would like to get something that would scare the living piss out of me when I stomp the pedal to the metal. Believe it or not, the fastest car that I have ever driven was a 1999 miata with stock everything.
How does a 200 hp vw really feel? I have no reference except that miata
I am looking to find a good spot between drive-ability, reliability, and power. From what I have seen, that means a well built 2276 turbo! Now that brings me to my biggest problem. I have a budget... It is about 6k give or take. Because of that, I would like to use as many "off the shelf" parts that I possibly can (ex - CB wedge port heads).
Does anyone know an "off the shelf" turbo build that have little no custom parts? I am fine drilling some holes and chopping some stuff (ex - the intake piping) and but when it comes to something as complex and precise as the motor I would rather just assemble it than mod it (for now)!
That also brings me to what to do about my tranny, I am pretty sure for something making power in the 190 - 230 hp range that I will need a pretty serious box. Again, I am looking for off the shelf stuff.
I know this post has a lot of "holes" it in and i'm sorry about that. I am really just trying to get some more help than watching other post and what they did.
Most of all I am looking for this, reliability, stupid speed, and for it to all fit under the decklid of my ghia (the lines are too nice )
Sorry for posting so much... I just gotta start somewhere!
Thank you all!
I am looking to take my daily driven 1971 karmann ghia from DD status to lesser used car. Even when DD-ing my ghia, I put only about 5000 miles a year (and that is going EVERYWHERE with this car). That being said, this is basically me lining up my priorities on what I would like this motor to do. I would like to get something that would scare the living piss out of me when I stomp the pedal to the metal. Believe it or not, the fastest car that I have ever driven was a 1999 miata with stock everything.
How does a 200 hp vw really feel? I have no reference except that miata
I am looking to find a good spot between drive-ability, reliability, and power. From what I have seen, that means a well built 2276 turbo! Now that brings me to my biggest problem. I have a budget... It is about 6k give or take. Because of that, I would like to use as many "off the shelf" parts that I possibly can (ex - CB wedge port heads).
Does anyone know an "off the shelf" turbo build that have little no custom parts? I am fine drilling some holes and chopping some stuff (ex - the intake piping) and but when it comes to something as complex and precise as the motor I would rather just assemble it than mod it (for now)!
That also brings me to what to do about my tranny, I am pretty sure for something making power in the 190 - 230 hp range that I will need a pretty serious box. Again, I am looking for off the shelf stuff.
I know this post has a lot of "holes" it in and i'm sorry about that. I am really just trying to get some more help than watching other post and what they did.
Most of all I am looking for this, reliability, stupid speed, and for it to all fit under the decklid of my ghia (the lines are too nice )
Sorry for posting so much... I just gotta start somewhere!
Thank you all!
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
Wow, let me start with the trans,,
Stock gears will work
at the very least get a Super Diff or no "holeshots'
Stock gears will work
at the very least get a Super Diff or no "holeshots'
- kangaboy
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
You can shop around for a trans here: http://ranchotransaxles.com/vw-transaxles/
Pretty sure the ProStreet is what I will be shopping for when I blow my stock trans.
As for the motor, I have no experience in buying a built one. I have put together three of them, starting when I was 16. I would really recommend doing so, and then you can use the knowledge later on down the road when something goes south. You will better have the ability to fix it yourself, instead of having to rely on a shop or the engine builder, which could take a lot of time and more money.
I'm not going to get into details as far as having that big of a motor, and still having it be a DD, but there are a few folks on this site that are making at or over 200hp with stockish sized motors (1600-1776). If you turbo it, you certainly won't need the displacement you mentioned in your first post.
Welcome to the site, and I'm looking forward to your build!
Pretty sure the ProStreet is what I will be shopping for when I blow my stock trans.
As for the motor, I have no experience in buying a built one. I have put together three of them, starting when I was 16. I would really recommend doing so, and then you can use the knowledge later on down the road when something goes south. You will better have the ability to fix it yourself, instead of having to rely on a shop or the engine builder, which could take a lot of time and more money.
I'm not going to get into details as far as having that big of a motor, and still having it be a DD, but there are a few folks on this site that are making at or over 200hp with stockish sized motors (1600-1776). If you turbo it, you certainly won't need the displacement you mentioned in your first post.
Welcome to the site, and I'm looking forward to your build!
- petew
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
I dunno if your ghia is IRS, but late Lbug boxes with the 3.88R&P are perfect and generally pretty darn strong. If you can find one in reasonable condition, it will handle most of the torque until your budget extends to a decent trans. Late 1300 swingaxle boxes are also good, but the 3.88 is better for the torque of a turbo motor.
Personally, I'd start with a simple EFI/intercooler/turbo setup on your current motor if it's in good order. From there, you can always build a bigger long engine later on. As Kangaboy mentioned, smaller motors can go really well.
Personally, I'd start with a simple EFI/intercooler/turbo setup on your current motor if it's in good order. From there, you can always build a bigger long engine later on. As Kangaboy mentioned, smaller motors can go really well.
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
madmike, kangaboy, and petew, thanks for the replies! I currently running and IRS setup with a superbeetle "AT" transmission with the stock gears that came with the box, new (confirmed 3.78 x 2.06 x 1.26 x 0.93 : Also a 3.88 r&p).
madmike - I plan to make sure that I dont have "one tire fire"
kangaboy - I was looking at rancho from the start. From what I have heard they are pretty good!
I am also not sure where you got that I wanted to buy a pre-built motor. I meant to say that I just want to use off the shelf parts (like the crank and heads) and not have to work them over, just bolt all the parts I bought together and then run the motor ! I plan to put it together my self as much as I can!
The only reason I mentioned the large displacement motor (2276) was in hopes of making it more reliable by making the engine work less per CC for power.
And about looking forward to my build... I meant to say my budget will EVENTUALLY be 6k . For now, it is around 1k . You will have to wait a bit
petew - I hear what you are saying about the 3.88 (I am running one now) my engine and tranny are just a bit high on the miles and I would rather have something more soild and new to hook to my new powerhouse.
Do you have any good links to a "budget" EFI turbo set-up? I am not liking the looks of the CB Performance EFI kit (it is $2k and some change ).
I was thinking just to go with a "big motor" to disperse the HP among the CC's. My motor has been done over just a bit too many times and I think it is on its last legs (case and all). I would MUCH rather start with a new block and transmission.
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To everyone - I am also wondering, what size motor would be the best for 100*F ambient summer temperatures and for reliability and a budget?
I am looking for as much HP as possible until I start to need something crazy like a mendola tranmission. What engine size? 2007? What size heads would do the trick? I am thinking the 044 heads from CB but what size?!?
THANKS
madmike - I plan to make sure that I dont have "one tire fire"
kangaboy - I was looking at rancho from the start. From what I have heard they are pretty good!
I am also not sure where you got that I wanted to buy a pre-built motor. I meant to say that I just want to use off the shelf parts (like the crank and heads) and not have to work them over, just bolt all the parts I bought together and then run the motor ! I plan to put it together my self as much as I can!
The only reason I mentioned the large displacement motor (2276) was in hopes of making it more reliable by making the engine work less per CC for power.
And about looking forward to my build... I meant to say my budget will EVENTUALLY be 6k . For now, it is around 1k . You will have to wait a bit
petew - I hear what you are saying about the 3.88 (I am running one now) my engine and tranny are just a bit high on the miles and I would rather have something more soild and new to hook to my new powerhouse.
Do you have any good links to a "budget" EFI turbo set-up? I am not liking the looks of the CB Performance EFI kit (it is $2k and some change ).
I was thinking just to go with a "big motor" to disperse the HP among the CC's. My motor has been done over just a bit too many times and I think it is on its last legs (case and all). I would MUCH rather start with a new block and transmission.
----
To everyone - I am also wondering, what size motor would be the best for 100*F ambient summer temperatures and for reliability and a budget?
I am looking for as much HP as possible until I start to need something crazy like a mendola tranmission. What engine size? 2007? What size heads would do the trick? I am thinking the 044 heads from CB but what size?!?
THANKS
- petew
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
Ok, let's talk reality...
$6k won't get you a decent motor AND strong trans in the spec you're describing. You might build something for that, but whether it will last is another story. You might be adding up individual components and thinking, "sure, I can do it for that", but in reality. Werl, budget for more. Least that's my experience.
$6k WILL get you something that will work on your current motor. Build something you can add to later. Does that make more sense?
$6k won't get you a decent motor AND strong trans in the spec you're describing. You might build something for that, but whether it will last is another story. You might be adding up individual components and thinking, "sure, I can do it for that", but in reality. Werl, budget for more. Least that's my experience.
$6k WILL get you something that will work on your current motor. Build something you can add to later. Does that make more sense?
- petew
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- Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:05 pm
Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
Sorry, didn't mean to sound negative. Let's talk briefly about what you already have...
If it's a 1600, then the stock crank, rods, pistons, barrels, cam actually work very well for a turbo setup. You might want to balance the bottom end, but as long as it's in good order it's a great place to start. Whether you choose to rebuild what you have, or find a good core, that would be a great place to start learning how to build motors.
There are a few of us with this setup having a lot of fun with turbos.
While your doing this your stock trans will probably cope fine.
If it's a 1600, then the stock crank, rods, pistons, barrels, cam actually work very well for a turbo setup. You might want to balance the bottom end, but as long as it's in good order it's a great place to start. Whether you choose to rebuild what you have, or find a good core, that would be a great place to start learning how to build motors.
There are a few of us with this setup having a lot of fun with turbos.
While your doing this your stock trans will probably cope fine.
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
Wow, I knew that these motors were pretty expensive but this is uncalled for . My savings shall slowly increase with time so I am just going to act like have no budget. I hate to be "that one guy" but I like the saying of "go big or go home". I am making cash, so I will eventually have the cash, lol! Thank you for the help, petew.
Because this car is a ghia, the only option that I would like to do is a blow through setup. I have seen this set up go 4 ways, center EFI, center car, dual EFI, and dual carbs. The setup that I would probably do the best with is probably a center carburetor or the center efi.
What are some of the trans that people are running to cope with a 200+ hp boosted motor?
Because this car is a ghia, the only option that I would like to do is a blow through setup. I have seen this set up go 4 ways, center EFI, center car, dual EFI, and dual carbs. The setup that I would probably do the best with is probably a center carburetor or the center efi.
What are some of the trans that people are running to cope with a 200+ hp boosted motor?
- Piledriver
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
The transmissions limit is not HP, its torque.
You could stick a 450HP turbo rotary on a ~stock T1 SSC trans and probably never kill it unless you dumped the clutch at 9000 RPM.
A reasonably boosted 1600 should be manageable with a stock SSC trans in decent shape.
I'd put a good welded counterweighted DPR crank in it with matching 8 dowelled flywheel, a moderate cam and decent dual valve springs so you can use the added RPM range a decent crank allows.
Better than stock rods like the scat I-beams with good bolts would be wise.
"Prepped" stock rods are still stock rods.
You could stick a 450HP turbo rotary on a ~stock T1 SSC trans and probably never kill it unless you dumped the clutch at 9000 RPM.
A reasonably boosted 1600 should be manageable with a stock SSC trans in decent shape.
I'd put a good welded counterweighted DPR crank in it with matching 8 dowelled flywheel, a moderate cam and decent dual valve springs so you can use the added RPM range a decent crank allows.
Better than stock rods like the scat I-beams with good bolts would be wise.
"Prepped" stock rods are still stock rods.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- petew
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
You could easily put a draw through setup in. But yeah, blow through is better for the street and for proper intercooling. I'm actually a little jealous of all the space you have in your ghia engine bay. My little oval has a LOT less.
- kangaboy
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
Guess I misread that a little bit.Rückstoß wrote:I am also not sure where you got that I wanted to buy a pre-built motor. I meant to say that I just want to use off the shelf parts (like the crank and heads) and not have to work them over, just bolt all the parts I bought together and then run the motor ! I plan to put it together my self as much as I can!
The only reason I mentioned the large displacement motor (2276) was in hopes of making it more reliable by making the engine work less per CC for power.
As far as the displacement, the turbo will make up for a lot of it. If you can build the bottom end to rev up to 7-8k rpm repeatedly, you wont need a "big" motor.
If I can offer any advice, with hindsight being 20/20...spend good money and research the internals (crank, rods, lifters, cam, etc.). I just got my turbo setup running a few weeks ago on my 1776, and only being able to rev it (safetly) to ~4750rpm is a real nut shot (stock crank and rods that I didn't balance ).
Granted, when I built this motor several years ago, I never intended it to have a turbo. I just wanted 30+ mpg with some merging power.
Also, immediately start looking into EFI...megasquirt and all the abilities it has is friggin awesome. I loth the day I have to change jets or adjust A/F with a screwdriver again.
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
Wow! Thank you all for the great information! I have a question about the lower displacement motors... it looks like they are pretty good because they are keeping to the size of the original motor (ex. no case clearancing). Because one of these motors is so "small", wouldn't you have a more noticeable turbo lag time? The motor would also be a short stroke motor so it would love to spin if built right. What problems do you encounter with a motor that revs higher? Thanks for answering all of my noob questions!
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
I have a stock crank and rods without balancing and rev mine to 5200 rpm quite often. I am bumping up the rev limiter to 5600 today.kangaboy wrote:Guess I misread that a little bit.Rückstoß wrote:I am also not sure where you got that I wanted to buy a pre-built motor. I meant to say that I just want to use off the shelf parts (like the crank and heads) and not have to work them over, just bolt all the parts I bought together and then run the motor ! I plan to put it together my self as much as I can!
The only reason I mentioned the large displacement motor (2276) was in hopes of making it more reliable by making the engine work less per CC for power.
As far as the displacement, the turbo will make up for a lot of it. If you can build the bottom end to rev up to 7-8k rpm repeatedly, you wont need a "big" motor.
If I can offer any advice, with hindsight being 20/20...spend good money and research the internals (crank, rods, lifters, cam, etc.). I just got my turbo setup running a few weeks ago on my 1776, and only being able to rev it (safetly) to ~4750rpm is a real nut shot (stock crank and rods that I didn't balance ).
Granted, when I built this motor several years ago, I never intended it to have a turbo. I just wanted 30+ mpg with some merging power.
Also, immediately start looking into EFI...megasquirt and all the abilities it has is friggin awesome. I loth the day I have to change jets or adjust A/F with a screwdriver again.
The Swedes and Norwegians are revving stock cranked 1641 engines to 7000 plus rpm and getting almost 400 hp... I think we can go up a ways from 4750 rpm.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
Lag comes from big turbos and massive hp.Rückstoß wrote:Wow! Thank you all for the great information! I have a question about the lower displacement motors... it looks like they are pretty good because they are keeping to the size of the original motor (ex. no case clearancing). Because one of these motors is so "small", wouldn't you have a more noticeable turbo lag time? The motor would also be a short stroke motor so it would love to spin if built right. What problems do you encounter with a motor that revs higher? Thanks for answering all of my noob questions!
If you want 400 hp from a 1600 engine you will have to put up with laggy low end.
If you want insta-boost you won't get 400 hp out of the small turbo it takes to do that.
If it's for the street you can run a smaller turbo and get 200 hp without too much trouble if you use intercooling and/or WI with a good fuel and ignition system.
The smaller turbos are limited on sustained boost to an extent. They are also out of their efficiency range at high levels of boost.
It all in the turbo as they say.....what do you want.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
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Re: Turbo Engine, Tranaxle, and other questions...
Silly question, where can I find some 180 hp+ builds on this site? There is no search function for power . I am liking the idea of the smaller motors (1776?) making huge power! I would like to use EFI on this build and an intercooler if possible.Clonebug wrote: Lag comes from big turbos and massive hp.
If you want 400 hp from a 1600 engine you will have to put up with laggy low end.
If you want insta-boost you won't get 400 hp out of the small turbo it takes to do that.
If it's for the street you can run a smaller turbo and get 200 hp without too much trouble if you use intercooling and/or WI with a good fuel and ignition system.
The smaller turbos are limited on sustained boost to an extent. They are also out of their efficiency range at high levels of boost.
It all in the turbo as they say.....what do you want.
What transmission would I be able to use to take 200 (ish) torque and hp? I want to build the motor so I do not have to spend 5k on a mendola trans. So if I need a mendola trans when I reach 300 ft/tq, I would like to lessen that power to 250 ft/tq so I dont have to spend so much! What transmission would be my best fit?