New guy, new build
- Chip Birks
- Posts: 4003
- Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:59 pm
Re: New guy, new build
If you are wanting to do much more than control fuel and spark, and maybe boost OR an idle valve, Mircrosquirt will probably leave you wanting. I'd go ms2 v3 at the very least.
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- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:28 pm
Re: New guy, new build
i need someone to teach me all these things haha. i want it to be more efficient and go to EFI in the future. reading about it just leaves me confusedChip Birks wrote:If you are wanting to do much more than control fuel and spark, and maybe boost OR an idle valve, Mircrosquirt will probably leave you wanting. I'd go ms2 v3 at the very least.
and do all you guys build you boards? i thought they just came done and ready to go. But it looks like you have to completely build the board
- petew
- Posts: 3920
- Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:05 pm
Re: New guy, new build
About 2 years back, I was in the same position as you. I bought a microsquirt and for where I'm at now, it's a good place to start. Mario can sell you a kit with a micro squirt read to go, or he can build you a computer. Wiring it up is not especially hard.
The whole motor runs off just a few things...
Where the motor is at; Crank position sensor
How much air it's getting; Manifold air pressure sensor (MAP)
How much throttle it's getting; Throttle position sensor (TBS)
Whether the mixture is right; Air fuel ratio sensor (AFR) or O2 sensor
How hot the intake air is; Manifold air temp sensor (MAT)
How hot the motor is; Head temp sensor (CT) or coolant temp
That's just 6 sensors.
All these control your...
Fuel Injectors; batch fire means they all fire together. Sequential means they are timed for each cylinder.
Coil packs; this can be wasted spark (front and back pairs of cyls fire every 180deg) or timed like a dizzy.
It's not quite as complicated as you think.
The whole motor runs off just a few things...
Where the motor is at; Crank position sensor
How much air it's getting; Manifold air pressure sensor (MAP)
How much throttle it's getting; Throttle position sensor (TBS)
Whether the mixture is right; Air fuel ratio sensor (AFR) or O2 sensor
How hot the intake air is; Manifold air temp sensor (MAT)
How hot the motor is; Head temp sensor (CT) or coolant temp
That's just 6 sensors.
All these control your...
Fuel Injectors; batch fire means they all fire together. Sequential means they are timed for each cylinder.
Coil packs; this can be wasted spark (front and back pairs of cyls fire every 180deg) or timed like a dizzy.
It's not quite as complicated as you think.
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: New guy, new build
A Microsquirt is factory assembled, it more or less is what it is, not easily upgradable save for firmware.
It cannot become an MS3, but unless you absolutely need full sequential fuel and spark, it will work.
(It can actually be modded for that but its not a DIY mod for most folks)
but: if you want more sensors and I/O down the road it does canbus and will speak to a CANEGT or IOX and a few digital dashboards, including a few OEM dashes.
I have been running MS3 on a V2.2 board for years, and have run a MS2+MS3x setup that drops/plugs in the same harness, using a v1.01 mainboard, in a MS2 std height box.
The little dumb MS2XT adapter board makes a fully sequential MS2+MS3X setup essentially plug and play.
The V3.57 mainboard is also of factory built SMD construction and is not repairable by most folks.
It cannot become an MS3, but unless you absolutely need full sequential fuel and spark, it will work.
(It can actually be modded for that but its not a DIY mod for most folks)
but: if you want more sensors and I/O down the road it does canbus and will speak to a CANEGT or IOX and a few digital dashboards, including a few OEM dashes.
I have been running MS3 on a V2.2 board for years, and have run a MS2+MS3x setup that drops/plugs in the same harness, using a v1.01 mainboard, in a MS2 std height box.
The little dumb MS2XT adapter board makes a fully sequential MS2+MS3X setup essentially plug and play.
The V3.57 mainboard is also of factory built SMD construction and is not repairable by most folks.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
- petew
- Posts: 3920
- Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:05 pm
Re: New guy, new build
Hmm, canbus. Will have to look into that.
P.s. thanks for the clarification PD.
P.s. thanks for the clarification PD.
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- Posts: 4719
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:28 pm
Re: New guy, new build
The Ver. 3.0 Board that I have can take a MS-1, MS-2 or MS-3 ECU and each ECU costs a little more and gives more features.
You could start with a MS-1 ECU since they are like $16.00 and put that in a VER. 3.0 board to get a taste of it then upgrade as you want more.
That's kind of what I did.
You can build your own or have one built.
I had Mario build my Relay board, repair and modify my Ver. 3.0 MS board and build the harness with all the plug on one end long enough that I could place them into a harness and hook everything up to the relay board and whatever else it hooked to.
A basic MS is cheap......getting all the options added will increase the price.
I think all my mods and repair cost me about $300.00 to have done along with the extra harness I needed.
Mario also has his own ECU that is available and would be a great unit since it already has a O2 sensor controller built right in.
Check out his website for more info and prices.
You could start with a MS-1 ECU since they are like $16.00 and put that in a VER. 3.0 board to get a taste of it then upgrade as you want more.
That's kind of what I did.
You can build your own or have one built.
I had Mario build my Relay board, repair and modify my Ver. 3.0 MS board and build the harness with all the plug on one end long enough that I could place them into a harness and hook everything up to the relay board and whatever else it hooked to.
A basic MS is cheap......getting all the options added will increase the price.
I think all my mods and repair cost me about $300.00 to have done along with the extra harness I needed.
Mario also has his own ECU that is available and would be a great unit since it already has a O2 sensor controller built right in.
Check out his website for more info and prices.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
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- Posts: 292
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:28 pm
Re: New guy, new build
you completely lost me haha. All these ms1 ms2 with a 2.2 board +ms3x... and im lost. i see that mario sells the ms2 for 435 plus more for added sensors. For now all i would want it to do is ignition, meth control and maybe boost control so i could use an ebcs. If you just order a kit for diyautotune does it come with everything needed to use all these sensors i would need? It also comes with an 8' harness for cheaper than marios kitPiledriver wrote:A Microsquirt is factory assembled, it more or less is what it is, not easily upgradable save for firmware.
It cannot become an MS3, but unless you absolutely need full sequential fuel and spark, it will work.
(It can actually be modded for that but its not a DIY mod for most folks)
but: if you want more sensors and I/O down the road it does canbus and will speak to a CANEGT or IOX and a few digital dashboards, including a few OEM dashes.
I have been running MS3 on a V2.2 board for years, and have run a MS2+MS3x setup that drops/plugs in the same harness, using a v1.01 mainboard, in a MS2 std height box.
The little dumb MS2XT adapter board makes a fully sequential MS2+MS3X setup essentially plug and play.
The V3.57 mainboard is also of factory built SMD construction and is not repairable by most folks.
But again this is over my head maybe ill just keep my ancient dizzy set up.
when you guys tune your timing curve for a vw is it boost based or load based or a mix. my mazdaspeed 3 is kind of a hybrid between the 2 but i have knock sensors that retard timing per cylinder
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: New guy, new build
Usually load based, as boost is computed into load.
You can do the knock sensor based retard internally with MS3 (via an optional 2 channel module) or MS2/Microsquirt via an external module or subsystem like a J&S SafeGuard, which can actually do it all by itself, and the MS just sees the knock so you can log it. (one way to set it up)
Megasquirt has been evolving for about 15 years now, so its easy to seem confusing due to sheer number of possible configurations... but once you read a little it really only suffers from being flexible.
Quick primer:
The "standard" mainboard/aluminum box setups can be MS1, MS2, or MS3 depending on what CPU setup is plugged into it. These are very flexible, and easily modified. This is good, as they have to be for a lot of common setups.
A Microsquirt is MS2-based, made to be rugged and can be fully sealed, with all automotive grade components including the connectors. The CPU is part of it, not upgradable.
Megasquirt was originally designed and made by Bowling and Grippo, and they own the trademark, and licence out the designs etc.
Current software development is done by the crew at msextra.com, as the ms2-extra C code was used as the basis of programming the MS3, as the original B&G code was not suitable for further development. (guess)
It is possible to get easily confused reading the "megamanual" on B&Gs site as msextra uses the hardware differently in some places, so please avoid reading the megamanual and just use msextra documentation for study or reference.
You can do the knock sensor based retard internally with MS3 (via an optional 2 channel module) or MS2/Microsquirt via an external module or subsystem like a J&S SafeGuard, which can actually do it all by itself, and the MS just sees the knock so you can log it. (one way to set it up)
Megasquirt has been evolving for about 15 years now, so its easy to seem confusing due to sheer number of possible configurations... but once you read a little it really only suffers from being flexible.
Quick primer:
The "standard" mainboard/aluminum box setups can be MS1, MS2, or MS3 depending on what CPU setup is plugged into it. These are very flexible, and easily modified. This is good, as they have to be for a lot of common setups.
A Microsquirt is MS2-based, made to be rugged and can be fully sealed, with all automotive grade components including the connectors. The CPU is part of it, not upgradable.
Megasquirt was originally designed and made by Bowling and Grippo, and they own the trademark, and licence out the designs etc.
Current software development is done by the crew at msextra.com, as the ms2-extra C code was used as the basis of programming the MS3, as the original B&G code was not suitable for further development. (guess)
It is possible to get easily confused reading the "megamanual" on B&Gs site as msextra uses the hardware differently in some places, so please avoid reading the megamanual and just use msextra documentation for study or reference.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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- Posts: 292
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:28 pm
Re: New guy, new build
alright so i understand tht the MS is basically the board thats in the box. So you can upgrade from 1 2 or 3 by buying a board. so the micro is basically what it is, no upgrades or changes. It seems the best would be an MS so i can upgrade if needed. But a micro can get me started so i can learn a little. I feel like im 70 years old trying to get someone to explain a smart phone. Im usually pretty tech savvy being only 26 years old, i feel like if i got my hands on it i would pick it up quick.
I emailed mario asking for his imput and ill see what he says. I just feel like a solid ignition would help this car a lot, timing flutter is bad and id like to get rid of it. And why spend another 400 bucks on a programmable msd box when i could sell all my msd stuff for 500 bucks and get something i could grow into
I emailed mario asking for his imput and ill see what he says. I just feel like a solid ignition would help this car a lot, timing flutter is bad and id like to get rid of it. And why spend another 400 bucks on a programmable msd box when i could sell all my msd stuff for 500 bucks and get something i could grow into
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- Posts: 292
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:28 pm
Re: New guy, new build
well i bought a 2 psi hobbs switch so i can use that to turn my meth on until I get my meth controller back (if i ever get ahold of snow performance)
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- Posts: 4719
- Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:28 pm
Re: New guy, new build
Read this about water injection......somewhere they talk about progressive controllers and they don't say anything good about them. It's just a failure point and once you get to high boost you don't want to take that chance.
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
Just set up those Hobbs and you will have reliable control. If you want staged use two or three but it ends up being the right amount of water/alcohol at the right boost.
I am burning enough fuel for around 230 hp and I put in 3.0 gph of water. On top of that the nozzles flow more than what they are rated at.
You will have to test them by running the pump and nozzle(s) into a container for a set amount of time to set what they actually flow on your system. Mine were almost double.
There are lot's of calculators around that will tell you how much to inject so use that as a guide but it comes down to getting it there at the right time and right amount for a certain load.
This one works pretty good..
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/water_calculator.html
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
Just set up those Hobbs and you will have reliable control. If you want staged use two or three but it ends up being the right amount of water/alcohol at the right boost.
I am burning enough fuel for around 230 hp and I put in 3.0 gph of water. On top of that the nozzles flow more than what they are rated at.
You will have to test them by running the pump and nozzle(s) into a container for a set amount of time to set what they actually flow on your system. Mine were almost double.
There are lot's of calculators around that will tell you how much to inject so use that as a guide but it comes down to getting it there at the right time and right amount for a certain load.
This one works pretty good..
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/water_calculator.html
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.
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- Posts: 292
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:28 pm
Re: New guy, new build
so when you run more than one sprayer you still only have one pump right? just have a mac solenoid in line to the second nozzle and use the hobbs to open it up?
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- Posts: 292
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:28 pm
Re: New guy, new build
ok so I keep having issues with oil filters. I keep popping the seals out when its cold. I do have a 30mm oil pump and high pressure (20psi hot and like 65psi at 3200 rpms freeway) so Im wondering if I should keep dropping oil weight? I switched from 20/50 to a 10/40 and my pressures didnt change much. When I ask all the VW turbo people I know they all thay the same thing, run 20/50 no matter what. I think they might be just stuck in there ways.
I have read through a lot of this blog https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... t-ranking/ and it does make sense so Im just looking for a real world viscosity that some of you guys run.
I have read through a lot of this blog https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/0 ... t-ranking/ and it does make sense so Im just looking for a real world viscosity that some of you guys run.
- petew
- Posts: 3920
- Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:05 pm
Re: New guy, new build
My bro had the same issue in his 67 bus with a 1776. Kept blowing the lines off the oil cooler first think in the morning. He used lighter weight oil for winter. I guess the other thing is to consider how fine your filter is. Could be that it could cope with a slightly coarser filter.
It's winter where you are right now, right? How cold is it getting?
It's winter where you are right now, right? How cold is it getting?
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- Posts: 292
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:28 pm
Re: New guy, new build
Im in san diego so its not that cold. 45 degrees at 5:45 am when I start it up. Im using a wix 51515 filter. And im actually blowing the rubber seal from between the filter and the mounting surfacepetew wrote: ↑Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:24 pm My bro had the same issue in his 67 bus with a 1776. Kept blowing the lines off the oil cooler first think in the morning. He used lighter weight oil for winter. I guess the other thing is to consider how fine your filter is. Could be that it could cope with a slightly coarser filter.
It's winter where you are right now, right? How cold is it getting?