1600 turbo build thread

With Turbo and Super charging you can create massive horsepower with vw motors.

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buguy
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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by buguy » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:34 pm

What does everyone else do? I'm filing my rings to get a better gap. Do you set the gap the same for the second ring, less gap? More?
Ive read some go 5x the bore (18.5mm) and some say 6x (22mm). I think I might split the difference and go right at 20mm. Just don't know if I should go a bit smaller on the second ring, stay the same, or go bigger on the gap. I've read different ways online.

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Chip Birks
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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by Chip Birks » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:08 am

I'm the same bore. I went more like .006x bore. Ran 20psi tonight, no damage. I'd rather be big than small.

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buguy
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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by buguy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:18 am

You go the same on both rings?

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by buguy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:23 am

Also I would like to hear opinions. Think it would be worth my while to make mine blow through with a Holley carb? I was thinking maybe I could intercool and use meth injection if I was blowthrough. But I get cooling effect with the drawthrough. I suspect the meth injection would make it worthwhile if nothing else. And then I have it when I go efi.

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by Clonebug » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:35 am

As far as I know my rings are set at stock gaps. I doubt Nate would remember what he set them at when he replaced my P'C's but I doubt they are wider.
I'm not an engine builder but I would set them at stock or just a little wider for safety. If you keep the AFR's in check and the IAT's down it shouldn't be any hotter than a non turbo engine I would think.
My EGT's run at 1400* but I did see 1600* on the dyno I think.
It's only for a short time unlike an airplane engine that has full load on takeoff through climb and then runs at 75% or more for cruise.
An Auto engine is under heavy load for maybe 10 seconds max on the street and up to 13 seconds on a drag strip.
Doesn't seem long enough to get it really hot in that amount of time.

Water Injection also helps cool the combustion chamber so in a sense it probably keeps the piston temps down......it certainly can't be a bad thing on a boosted engine.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by buguy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:42 am

That would have been a disaster for me. My bottom rings were as low as a real tight. 009. That would not have been good! If anyone is interested I found this article this morning. https://hotvws.com/content.php?contentID=203

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by buguy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:00 am

I remember reading a long time ago about guys using Porsche oil squirters on the back side of the pistons to help keep them cool with a turbo. No clue if it works or not but I guess it kind of makes sense.

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by Chip Birks » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:53 am

Clonebug wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:35 am
As far as I know my rings are set at stock gaps. I doubt Nate would remember what he set them at when he replaced my P'C's but I doubt they are wider.
I'm not an engine builder but I would set them at stock or just a little wider for safety. If you keep the AFR's in check and the IAT's down it shouldn't be any hotter than a non turbo engine I would think.
My EGT's run at 1400* but I did see 1600* on the dyno I think.
It's only for a short time unlike an airplane engine that has full load on takeoff through climb and then runs at 75% or more for cruise.
An Auto engine is under heavy load for maybe 10 seconds max on the street and up to 13 seconds on a drag strip.
Doesn't seem long enough to get it really hot in that amount of time.

Water Injection also helps cool the combustion chamber so in a sense it probably keeps the piston temps down......it certainly can't be a bad thing on a boosted engine.
An engine builder takes the time to measure and set things appropriately. An engine assembler throws things together, making assumptions about the quality of the parts they are using. I've been that guy in the past. I can't tell you how many scored cylinder walls I've seen over the years. I'm sure its a ring gap issue. There is enough variation in cylinder diameter and ring manufacturing, that you need to spec every ring to the cylinder its being run in. The ring manufacturers, assume that you will do your job and gap them correctly.

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by Clonebug » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:00 pm

Chip Birks wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:53 am
Clonebug wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:35 am
As far as I know my rings are set at stock gaps. I doubt Nate would remember what he set them at when he replaced my P'C's but I doubt they are wider.
I'm not an engine builder but I would set them at stock or just a little wider for safety. If you keep the AFR's in check and the IAT's down it shouldn't be any hotter than a non turbo engine I would think.
My EGT's run at 1400* but I did see 1600* on the dyno I think.
It's only for a short time unlike an airplane engine that has full load on takeoff through climb and then runs at 75% or more for cruise.
An Auto engine is under heavy load for maybe 10 seconds max on the street and up to 13 seconds on a drag strip.
Doesn't seem long enough to get it really hot in that amount of time.

Water Injection also helps cool the combustion chamber so in a sense it probably keeps the piston temps down......it certainly can't be a bad thing on a boosted engine.
An engine builder takes the time to measure and set things appropriately. An engine assembler throws things together, making assumptions about the quality of the parts they are using. I've been that guy in the past. I can't tell you how many scored cylinder walls I've seen over the years. I'm sure its a ring gap issue. There is enough variation in cylinder diameter and ring manufacturing, that you need to spec every ring to the cylinder its being run in. The ring manufacturers, assume that you will do your job and gap them correctly.
That's why I let a Builder build my stocker........I could have done it myself but I haven't done it before and due to the time and tools needed it ended up being a LOT cheaper to have TimsACVW do it for the $300.00 labor he charged plus parts I didn't supply....I just work some OT to make up for it...... :wink:
Since I had new barrels put in by Nate I'm sure he checked them and adjusted them to size also. If not it's been good for 21,000 miles of boosted goodness........ :wink:
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by buguy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:28 pm

Makes sense. It would be way easier (and probably smarter) for me to have someone do it for me while I work a little OT doing something I know how to do. But I really wanted to learn the how/why of it all. The engine builder at work has been a ton of help so far but he's good at rattling on and on about stuff I don't know nornunderstand!
I'm seriously thinking about porting those stock heads myself (with his guidance) and he said he would teach me how to do a 3 angle valve job. The equipment is all there at work so that part is free. If I do decide to port and use the heads I have I may try to find an inexpensive electric rotary grinder so I can do it at home. We have an attached garage and I'm betting the wife doesn't want to listen to my little compressor run for 13 hours!
Or I may just plunk down $670 for a set of Panchitos. Not sure yet. That money would cover a good portion of an efi.

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by Ol'fogasaurus » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:22 pm

A guy I know, who is now retired from the VW engine building scene, taught me one thing: unless you have a flow-bench doing anything other than simple port matching and maybe some polishing can be wasted or detrimental to the engine build (polishing the exhaust side is probably wasted as the exhaust waste can cover the polish pretty quickly). Messing with the valve pocket (especially) and maybe the guides other that simple deburring can change air flow charistics and actually make air flow worse than stock. When we used to port, polish and relieve flathead engines that was found out and that was back in the late '50 and early '60s.

Trying to speed up his builds he bought a pair of the "hogged-out" heads but when he flow-bench checked them: it turned out that the heads flowed less than stock heads. A digital program had been made from a set of hand flowed heads which were thought to be very good. He did a head using his flow bench and sent to the company he got his from which they are now using; this is based on what he told me during a conversation on something else.

For what it is worth.

Lee

My opinion is worth slightly less than you paid for it.

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by buguy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:02 pm

I would only be porting it because I can't run the stock 54cc chamber. That would put me at 8.6:1 compression @. 05 deck height, so my only real option is to port them. Or run a. 112" deck height.

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by buguy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:05 am

I did a bunch more research and found many people recommend 006x on the top ring and 0065 x the bore on the bottom ring. I couldn't bring my self to open them that far so I settled on going 021 on the top and bottom rings. That's all done. Used this handy dandy ring file and stone to clean them up. Next I can mock up the p&c on the engine to measure deck height and get some heads coming. Still not 100% sure what I'm going to do but I'm leaning towards just getting the Panchito with the 61cc cnc chamber. But I still might just port my old ones. Heads can easily be changed later if I decide to.
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Chip Birks
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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by Chip Birks » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:13 am

That will probably be okay. You aren't running tons of boost

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Re: 1600 turbo build thread

Post by buguy » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:34 am

Yet!
If I end using my stock heads then I will probably order up my megasquirt.

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