Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

With Turbo and Super charging you can create massive horsepower with vw motors.

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petew
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Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by petew » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:00 am

Inspired by Piledriver and the want to own a car that doesn't suck a dead dino out of the ground every mile, I've been interested in effecient tuning for some time. Today I saw this vid and it's blown my mind. Now, sure it a new factory tuned motor. However, seems to me (like many things) ACVWs benefit from the same tuning upgrades most other motors do. But could it do this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNSxow3W7ek


It would be easy to pooh pooh all the concepts here as pie in the sky for old air cooled motors, but my motor runs cool at 17 AFRs until hits boost. Could we do something similar to these guys with our aircoolers?

P.s. Mario, could you do something like this with your new supercharger?

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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by buguy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:27 am

That's interesting. I wonder if we could do something like that. I think you would have to forget about trying to get Max power though. And how would we even come close to those compression numbers?

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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by petew » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:14 pm

Some of the guys running alcohol with pro-stock/all motor style engines are using those sort of comp ratios. I guess it's a very tight deck with valve inserts in the pistons. I think one of the things to realize with the setup is the amount of air they're using. That supercharger is as much about keeping the motor cool and well supplied with air as it is about power. The other thing we don't have is a direct injector. It would probably need to go where the stock plug is and then run another plug were people usually put their twin plug conversions. You'd also need a second map sensor for atmosphere, a very good knock sensor and a lot of dyno time.

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Dan Dryden
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by Dan Dryden » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:26 pm

They are also constantly monitoring pressure within the cylinder, so you would need to fit a pressure sensor in each head too..... then find software which can manage the data and adjust control accordingly.
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by Piledriver » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:01 pm

direct injection is the main trick allowing those compression numbers with boost
fuel injected as the spark goes off ~cannot knock, almost regardless of octane rating..

cylinder pressure sensors are an oem part these days if you can find the (mercedes) part number.
Their 0-5v output could be almost directly fed to a std knock chip setup to good effect.
A knock signal is quite distinct, and using those avoids the acoustic noise from our valvetrains etc.
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by MarioVelotta » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:40 pm

Amazing stuff. Truly amazing.

I'm not sure we are at that this point with standard ECU's. Direct injection requires processing power and VERY quickly. As you can imagine with higher rpm and being able to adjust the timing like autotune on the fly do to ambient conditions like in the video. I know some Mercedes techs that may be able to get me those sensors though Piledriver, if you know what they in?
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by petew » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:32 pm

I soooo dare you Mario! :D

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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by Piledriver » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:34 pm

MarioVelotta wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:40 pm
Amazing stuff. Truly amazing.

I'm not sure we are at that this point with standard ECU's. Direct injection requires processing power and VERY quickly. As you can imagine with higher rpm and being able to adjust the timing like autotune on the fly do to ambient conditions like in the video. I know some Mercedes techs that may be able to get me those sensors though Piledriver, if you know what they in?
I wish I did, I have looked on and off for years.
I know they are made by Sensata for Mercedes and IIRC Beru.
Even VW TDis had a glow-plug based version for the last 4-5 years, its basically the same sensor/electronics without glow plug. Probably only Euro 6 or better models.

The ones WE want they call CPO (cylinder pressure only) sensors, may be found on late diesels too as separating the sensor from the plug allows you to use ceramic plugs which are more reliable.

From a performance only standpoint, you don't need the flame guided/stratified charge and multi-event injection features
Those are huge for emissions and how the engine sounds etc.

For max power though a little residency time allows for better in-cylinder charge cooling.

I have a 997.2 DI pump and a set of injectors and the stand-alone injector driver box out of a mazdaspeed 6.
(they are paired with a ~std ECU on the previous gen DI Mazdas)
You probably see where I'm headed...
Last edited by Piledriver on Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by MarioVelotta » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:37 pm

petew wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:32 pm
I soooo dare you Mario! :D
I really would love too, if someone would pay for just a fraction of the time invested. I have a mortgage to pay :oops:
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theKbStockpiler
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by theKbStockpiler » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:46 am

Buy dual spark plug heads and start from there. Use one hole for the injector if it will fit.
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by buguy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:26 pm

I think I saw some dual plug heads on the Samba the other day for sale.

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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by petew » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:01 pm

Damn! What have I started here? :D

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buguy
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by buguy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:36 am

Maybe we need something more like variable compression... https://youtu.be/A6H66xfEZC4

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Wally
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by Wally » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:49 am

theKbStockpiler wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:46 am
Buy dual spark plug heads and start from there. Use one hole for the injector if it will fit.
Funny thing, I already have those... :roll: :lol:
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Re: Throw out all your old ideas about boosted tuning!

Post by buguy » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:21 pm

I think if I had those is have to try direct injection before anything else.

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