So just got in from a ten mile trip across town and back, and oil pressure, once engine is warm, is 33-65 lbs (idle-5500). Feeding a turbo as well.
am I within acceptable tolerances? Should I switch pumps? Will full flowing my engine and switching to a doghouse setup change it that much?
how much is too much?
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barefootskater1200
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:39 pm
Re: how much is too much?
89 bhp and counting
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Piledriver
- Moderator
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- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: how much is too much?
At 33PSI, oil is flowing through your cooler.
at >42 PSI, it is almost certainly not.
What was the pressure at cruise RPM?
The 10 PSI/thousand RPM is a general rule of thumb for any racing engine. (Not just ACVW)
I think you understand now why that may not work as expected on a ACVW with stock oil cooling system.
The full flow cooling/filtering bypasses the pressure-based stock oil cooler logic, but really needs an oil thermostat in order to EVER heat up, esp when <70F outside. The stock pressure based "thermostat" actually works awesome on a stock spec'd oil system.
The benefit of the doghouse is even air distribution/cooling.
You want to use one even if using an external full flow cooler w/fan.
If you want to use the stock doghouse cooler etc as designed, put a stock VW pump in it.
(Really stock, as in VW, even if 50 years old, as long as its in good shape)
You can get stiffer springs/taller pistons for the pressure relief and control bores, but that tends to lead to expanded>exploded coolers and other leaky forms of mayhem.
_I_ would put a stock pump in it. (non-aftermarket) that fits properly, unless you want to continue the science experiment.
Even the (~zero clearance) cast iron Melling pump I'm using was only 28mm, and T4s have 26mm pumps from the factory.
at >42 PSI, it is almost certainly not.
What was the pressure at cruise RPM?
The 10 PSI/thousand RPM is a general rule of thumb for any racing engine. (Not just ACVW)
I think you understand now why that may not work as expected on a ACVW with stock oil cooling system.
The full flow cooling/filtering bypasses the pressure-based stock oil cooler logic, but really needs an oil thermostat in order to EVER heat up, esp when <70F outside. The stock pressure based "thermostat" actually works awesome on a stock spec'd oil system.
The benefit of the doghouse is even air distribution/cooling.
You want to use one even if using an external full flow cooler w/fan.
If you want to use the stock doghouse cooler etc as designed, put a stock VW pump in it.
(Really stock, as in VW, even if 50 years old, as long as its in good shape)
You can get stiffer springs/taller pistons for the pressure relief and control bores, but that tends to lead to expanded>exploded coolers and other leaky forms of mayhem.
_I_ would put a stock pump in it. (non-aftermarket) that fits properly, unless you want to continue the science experiment.
Even the (~zero clearance) cast iron Melling pump I'm using was only 28mm, and T4s have 26mm pumps from the factory.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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barefootskater1200
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:39 pm
Re: how much is too much?
Oil pressure at cruise is 50-55.
I have a "looking for" ad up for doghouse stuff, and I'll keep an eye for stock pump...
Now I'm somewhat confused though, as I want to full flow so I can really filter the oil well, but would that plan conflict with the operation of the pressure relief valve? And I'm really not sure how to accomplish full flow without splitting the case.
I have a "looking for" ad up for doghouse stuff, and I'll keep an eye for stock pump...
Now I'm somewhat confused though, as I want to full flow so I can really filter the oil well, but would that plan conflict with the operation of the pressure relief valve? And I'm really not sure how to accomplish full flow without splitting the case.
89 bhp and counting
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Piledriver
- Moderator
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- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: how much is too much?
http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDet ... tCode=1798
That's the "early" style to go with an aftermarket cam.
FJCamper has a nice thread on these in the suspension and handling forum.
(Spolier: don't mix up 26mm and 30mm version covers)
The linked one is 26mm with full flow in/out cover.
This can be used two ways:
You can put your filter and tstat/cooler loop connected to these lines, and add a cross drilled adapter where the cooler used to go.
There are other possible ways to do "bolt on full flow" on a T1, but this requires the absolute minimum % of duct tape.
The factory pressure relief/cooler bypass will still work.
You could just hang the filter loop on it, and use the factory doghouse cooler: 26mm is reasonable, might only raise your oil temps ~20 degrees.
(Temp WILL rise until the oil pressure drops and the relief closes, allowing oil flow to the cooler)
I have not bought a pump from CB, please measure, other than the Schadeck drysump pump (used), which (doesn't) fit the same as all Schadeck pumps.
It's just not as much of an issue on the ds pump as the inner stage is only scavenge.
It might be worth harassing CB if they have any that are in spec pump body size wise.
They probably move enough pumps to have them made how they want.
Unfortunately "easy to install" may be how they want it.
That's the "early" style to go with an aftermarket cam.
FJCamper has a nice thread on these in the suspension and handling forum.
(Spolier: don't mix up 26mm and 30mm version covers)
The linked one is 26mm with full flow in/out cover.
This can be used two ways:
You can put your filter and tstat/cooler loop connected to these lines, and add a cross drilled adapter where the cooler used to go.
There are other possible ways to do "bolt on full flow" on a T1, but this requires the absolute minimum % of duct tape.
The factory pressure relief/cooler bypass will still work.
You could just hang the filter loop on it, and use the factory doghouse cooler: 26mm is reasonable, might only raise your oil temps ~20 degrees.
(Temp WILL rise until the oil pressure drops and the relief closes, allowing oil flow to the cooler)
I have not bought a pump from CB, please measure, other than the Schadeck drysump pump (used), which (doesn't) fit the same as all Schadeck pumps.
It's just not as much of an issue on the ds pump as the inner stage is only scavenge.
It might be worth harassing CB if they have any that are in spec pump body size wise.
They probably move enough pumps to have them made how they want.
Unfortunately "easy to install" may be how they want it.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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barefootskater1200
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:39 pm
Re: how much is too much?
Piledriver, thanks for all the input both here and on my build thread.
only one more question I think. For now anyway.
would I be safe driving this thing around town for a couple months as is? I'm out of budget and since I'm going back to school full time starting Jan 5 I won't have much disposable income... But this is my daily driver so I'm at a crossroads. Ideally I lump it along for a bit during the cold weather, hoping it provides some protection to over hot oil, or eat like a poor student for a couple weeks and redo my oil system now...
my daily commute is about 12 miles. And its half residential, half highway.
only one more question I think. For now anyway.
would I be safe driving this thing around town for a couple months as is? I'm out of budget and since I'm going back to school full time starting Jan 5 I won't have much disposable income... But this is my daily driver so I'm at a crossroads. Ideally I lump it along for a bit during the cold weather, hoping it provides some protection to over hot oil, or eat like a poor student for a couple weeks and redo my oil system now...
my daily commute is about 12 miles. And its half residential, half highway.
89 bhp and counting
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Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22520
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: how much is too much?
In the winter it's almost a feature.
I hope you have a working thermostat, but that would be a dangerous assumption, as ~everyone used to throw all that "junk" out when doing a rebuild, including me.
The engine will basically never get to operating temperature without it unless its 85-90F outside, and even then not fast enough.
There have actually been discussions about making a "thermostat" work via flaps in the rear tin opening up to allow hot cooling air recirculation, or simply removing the rear tin in winter if you live somewhere truly consistently cold
(not like Dallas, 20F one day, 80F a few days or even hours later)
You can and will cook your heads with the tins missing on a "nice" day, particularly at idle.
...assumes you have CHT and oil temp gauges at least.
How well that would work out in deep fluffy snow: doubtful.
The engine will last a LOT longer with a working thermostat, real full flow oil filter, and decent air filter.
(sand seal and some case vacuum for added points)
...NOT K&N or clones, gauze filters pass silica fines like they were not there, eats rings/bores/kills ring seal.
If you live anywhere there is dirt or sand (i.e. anywhere on planet Earth) don't fall for the marketing.
AMSOIL makes washable synthetic cone filters that are actually great filters.
Oiled foam like UNI filters is highly effective, if somewhat ugly and messy to wash by nature.
The factory paper filter works well and the oil bath, properly cared for and filled properly, works OK.
I hope you have a working thermostat, but that would be a dangerous assumption, as ~everyone used to throw all that "junk" out when doing a rebuild, including me.
The engine will basically never get to operating temperature without it unless its 85-90F outside, and even then not fast enough.
There have actually been discussions about making a "thermostat" work via flaps in the rear tin opening up to allow hot cooling air recirculation, or simply removing the rear tin in winter if you live somewhere truly consistently cold
(not like Dallas, 20F one day, 80F a few days or even hours later)
You can and will cook your heads with the tins missing on a "nice" day, particularly at idle.
...assumes you have CHT and oil temp gauges at least.
How well that would work out in deep fluffy snow: doubtful.
The engine will last a LOT longer with a working thermostat, real full flow oil filter, and decent air filter.
(sand seal and some case vacuum for added points)
...NOT K&N or clones, gauze filters pass silica fines like they were not there, eats rings/bores/kills ring seal.
If you live anywhere there is dirt or sand (i.e. anywhere on planet Earth) don't fall for the marketing.
AMSOIL makes washable synthetic cone filters that are actually great filters.
Oiled foam like UNI filters is highly effective, if somewhat ugly and messy to wash by nature.
The factory paper filter works well and the oil bath, properly cared for and filled properly, works OK.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
barefootskater1200
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:39 pm
Re: how much is too much?
50 psi oil pressure cruising to work today...
i didnt throw the thermostat away when rebuilding... i didnt have one to start with.
but i have been told by some old school vw guys that its about the most important thing to have...
where would i be able to find one? cb doesnt show one that i can find.
no CHT. my old man had one he was going to give me but its lost in his shop somewhere, so until he finds it i really cant afford one.
oil temp i have but not installed yet. that is in the plan for next week when i have some time. or possibly even friday. though the oil t stat never opens that i can tell leading me to think the oil never exceeds 180f
my setup is running j pipes and i do not have the tins that go from the sump to heater boxes installed... problem?
quality oil i fully understand the importance of as well as oil and air filtration. been in the auto industry too long to trust k&n. and i live in a particularly dusty area (southern utah)
outside temps here are 80+ for 6 months strong. and winter is neither particularly cold or long.
i didnt throw the thermostat away when rebuilding... i didnt have one to start with.
but i have been told by some old school vw guys that its about the most important thing to have...
where would i be able to find one? cb doesnt show one that i can find.
no CHT. my old man had one he was going to give me but its lost in his shop somewhere, so until he finds it i really cant afford one.
oil temp i have but not installed yet. that is in the plan for next week when i have some time. or possibly even friday. though the oil t stat never opens that i can tell leading me to think the oil never exceeds 180f
my setup is running j pipes and i do not have the tins that go from the sump to heater boxes installed... problem?
quality oil i fully understand the importance of as well as oil and air filtration. been in the auto industry too long to trust k&n. and i live in a particularly dusty area (southern utah)
outside temps here are 80+ for 6 months strong. and winter is neither particularly cold or long.
89 bhp and counting
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madmike
- Posts: 3146
- Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:11 pm
Re: how much is too much?
You can Full Flow without spliting case,remove pump, tap case with 3/8 NPT ,insert 'LONG' air/blow gun ,blow out chips,Plug pump or case,Re-install pump 
Run lines for filter & cooler ( leave cool off till summer)
Run lines for filter & cooler ( leave cool off till summer)
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BAJA-IT
- Posts: 2046
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:02 pm
Re: how much is too much?
Install a fitting where the oil pressure switch is that you can attach an air hose to. This will pressurize the oil passage and blow the chips out as you drill and tap the case. Also grease up the drill bit and tap to catch the chips, wipe off often.madmike wrote:You can Full Flow without spliting case,remove pump, tap case with 3/8 NPT ,insert 'LONG' air/blow gun ,blow out chips,Plug pump or case,Re-install pump
Run lines for filter & cooler ( leave cool off till summer)
BRAT Motorsports #936
Bolt Center: Salt Lake City, Ut
ACE: Air Cooled Engineering, now Black Line Racing
Bolt Center: Salt Lake City, Ut
ACE: Air Cooled Engineering, now Black Line Racing
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barefootskater1200
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:39 pm
Re: how much is too much?
i bought and installed the full flow pump from cb that piledriver linked to above. i dont know if i got lucky or those pumps are better than the other ones i bought but the fit was much better...
still havent decided where to mount the filter though. used to be on the firewall but i think that much hose would not be a good idea...
also installed doghouse shroud and cooler. never knew how much of a pain those were to install without pulling the engine out, but its done now.
ideally i would like to attach a bracket to my header and have the filter super close to the pump. is this a bad idea? im a little worried about it pre-heating my oil...
still havent decided where to mount the filter though. used to be on the firewall but i think that much hose would not be a good idea...
also installed doghouse shroud and cooler. never knew how much of a pain those were to install without pulling the engine out, but its done now.
ideally i would like to attach a bracket to my header and have the filter super close to the pump. is this a bad idea? im a little worried about it pre-heating my oil...
89 bhp and counting
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barefootskater1200
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:39 pm
Re: how much is too much?
Been keeping an eye on my oil pressure.
Idle is around 25psi and cruise is around 45-50 at 3000rpm.
Full flow setup is working great. And gives peace of mind which is nice.
After a really hot uphill run at 85mph for 10 minutes the idle pressure dropped to about 7... Though it was fine once I let off and it cooled down.
Idle is around 25psi and cruise is around 45-50 at 3000rpm.
Full flow setup is working great. And gives peace of mind which is nice.
After a really hot uphill run at 85mph for 10 minutes the idle pressure dropped to about 7... Though it was fine once I let off and it cooled down.
89 bhp and counting