Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

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wizrod
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Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by wizrod »

Hi All,

I have a '75 bay window camper with a 1600TP motor, fitted with a pair of 36IDFs, an SS quiet-pack exhaust & and electronic ignition in place of points.

While it runs reasonably well, it must be at least 30yrs old (it's not the original motor). The end float isn't too bad - within tolerance, but it is a little low on compression on #3. Its due a little TLC in the form of rebuild.

In its current form, it pushes the bus to a comfortable cruise of 55-60mph, but loses steam quite quickly on any up-lope (TBH, to be expected for a 1600 motor in a 2 ton bus!)

I'd like to take the opportunity of an over-winter rebuild to build in a little more pulling power. Specifically, I'd like to try to increase the available torque in the band between about 2000 & 4000 rpm (ish), while retaining reliability & economy - I am not out to build a drag strip monster!!!

Having done a little research, I've read that simply a bit of port-matching & polishing, a 3-angle valve job & mildly-unshrouding the valves in the CC will go a long way to delivering more torque....?

Beyond that - since I'll be splitting the case, what about a longer stroke crank? How would the length of stroke affect where the torque band lies?

Since I'm not looking to build in more BHP, would I see any benefit from increasing the bore? Also, would a change of cam and/or high-list rockers be beneficial in this scenario?

Note: this won't be my 1st T1 engine build...just the 1st where I've got a specific goal in mind (apart from 'I want MORE!!!!' - maybe I'm a little older & wiser? I'm certainly older :wink: )

(BTW - Yes...I know I could just find & fit a 2L T4 motor...but where's the fun in that :D )

Many thanks in advance for you words of wisdom.

cheers

Paul.
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

Paul, I run an off-road engine type I engine in my off-road buggy. I am running a RV style of cam: e.g.,a reground cam shaft with a bit higher lift and a shorter duration which is done for torque reasons. A below 5000rpm engine.

Stroking usually will give you more torque but going up on bore shouldn't hurt either. I would also stay with thicker walled cylinders.

On port matching: I would be leary about going too far down the runners (in either direction) with out having a flow bench to verify what is being done. It doesn't take much in the wrong places to make something looking good to flow less than it did before you started.

Lee
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Marc
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Re: Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by Marc »

I ran a 1679 Type I engine in my `73 Bus for a couple of years, and even with a single 34PICT-3 it compared favorably to the original dual-carb Type IV of the same displacement - 88x69 makes a lot more sense for a heavy vehicle than 90x66.
When my son took over the vehicle we put in a 1995 (88x82) with 48IDA Webers, and again it made a better Bus motor than the factory 2-liter.
So, I would say that it's definitely worth it to go to a longer-stroke crank, but that does entail a lot more issues than a stock-stroke build.
With goals as conservative as you have, it may be more sensible to retain the stock stroke. I would strongly recommend that the crank & flywheel be 8-dowelled, and (ideally) dynamically balanced, but for sub-5000 RPM work there's no real need for a counterweighted crank. Nor is a lightened flywheel required or desired in a heavy vehicle.
As Lee said, you want to avoid thin cylinderwalls for longevity. Slip-in 87s and 94s are out IMO, and slip-in 88s or classic 92s are even worse. That leaves machine-88s, "late" 90.5s and "thickwall" 92s (1679, 1775, and 1835cc respectively with the stock 69mm stroke). Of those three, the 90.5s have the thinnest cylinderwalls (nominal 3.75mm, compared to the 4.15mm of stock 85.5 jugs). The 88s and 92s are ~4.5mm thick, greater than stock.

Your bus is heavier than mine, and you already have more carburetion so the best option IMO would be the 92s. Their cylinders require that the heads be opened up to the diameter required for 94s; two versions are available, one that also uses the "94" diameter for the case opening and one that fits a case machined for late 90.5s/classic 92s - the latter is the better choice since it doesn't remove as much material from the case, and the thickness of the cylinder at the bottom is not an issue.

If you think you'd like even more than an 1835, there are many more combinations & permutations to consider, each with its own set of potential complications - but for your stated goals I'd be disinclined to go there. A lot more work/expense for the right to brag of having a "stroker" ;) ...also, where the stock heater boxes are adequate for a mild ~1850cc engine, moving up further in displacement adds expense there too.

I would go to a slightly larger-than-stock cam just to compensate for the displacement increase (assuming the same volumetric efficiency, an 1835 needs to pump as many CFM at 3455 RPM as a 1585 at 4000). But since you don't need to extend the upper RPM limit keep it conservative. Something under ~278° advertised duration, like a Bugpack 4061, Engle W-100, or Scat C-25 for example...those all work with a totally stock valvetrain below ~4500 RPM. You could use 1.4:1 ratio rockers on a stock cam too, but those will almost certainly need shorter pushrods and it's wise IMO to run HD valvesprings too - so if you're going to need to buy a new cam anyway, may as well spend the money there rather than on ratio rockers.

You won't get into any trouble port-matching out to the diameter of the stock metal intake gasket and blending in for ~½"; a mild mini-D port is also safe to do without a flow bench. Leave the guides/bosses alone, and there's no need to touch the exhausts. Stock size valves aren't badly shrouded, but it won't hurt to open the chambers up some. You're going to need to add at least a couple CCs unswept volume somehow anyway to keep the static C.R. down with the bigger displacement, and it's (theoretically) better done there than by increasing piston deck height beyond ~.060". That said, I wouldn't lose any sleep over keeping the deck height "tight" - the 88x76 motor I just built for my trike needed .220" deck to make up for the tiny chambers in the old race heads I used on it, and it runs cooler and gets better mileage than the 1585 it replaced.
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wizrod
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Re: Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by wizrod »

Thanks for your replies - good food for thought!

I don't intend to go overboard re: port matching - I'd just open them up (if at all) to match the IDF manifolds I already have, which are basic (EMPI, I think?) castings. Really, I'm more interested in smoothing the ports to improve the flow (inlet & exhaust). If I can eliminate whatever step there may be between manifold & inlet port at the same time, so much the better.

Marc, fully understand your comments re:cylinder walls, but what are your thoughts on the 88mm 'Thickwall' Bs&Ps that Aircooled.net sell - no case machining & 5mm wall thickness at the head end? I'm also leaning the way of a 74mm stroke crank and Aircooled.net's 5.325" I-Beam conn-rods, to get the benefit of a longer stroke, without the problems associated with a wider motor (tinware -exhaust etc), which would give 1800cc...?

You've also confirmed my thinking re: the cam & lifters ;)

I might even tempted to machine the heads myself (for the larger barrels), as I have the applicable tools...

TY

Paul
madmike
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Re: Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by madmike »

Hey Paul,I daliy drive a 70 Bus with a 2110 and It's awesome!!!!!!!!
Balance everything!!!
40 IDF's
w110 cam
stock heads ,,fluffed :wink:
Header, full flowed,w/filter and a aux cooler
porsche upper pulley to keep it cool :wink:
5 rib trans(4:86) which gets me the same MPG as the 1600 did :wink:
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Marc
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Re: Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by Marc »

wizrod wrote:...what are your thoughts on the 88mm 'Thickwall' Bs&Ps that Aircooled.net sell - no case machining & 5mm wall thickness at the head end? I'm also leaning the way of a 74mm stroke crank and Aircooled.net's 5.325" I-Beam conn-rods, to get the benefit of a longer stroke, without the problems associated with a wider motor (tinware -exhaust etc), which would give 1800cc..l
Those are the machine-88s with the 4.5mm thick cylinder wall that I alluded to above - those and the thickwall 92s come from China ("AA" brand). I've used their pistons/cylinders and found them to be surprisingly good for the money. http://aapistons.com/collections/vw-piston-liner-kits

The 88x74 1800 combo would be more elegant than 92x69 but I doubt you'd notice enough difference between them to warrant the added expense. If you're going to be buying another crank & rods either way it'd be easy enough to justify.
The 5.325" rods would be perfect for "A" compression-height pistons using a 72.5mm stroke; on 74mm you'd still need some barrel spacers but only ~.030" so the width and ideal pushrod length should be close to stock.

Another combo that comes out with a good package size is a 76mm stroke using 5.5" rods and "B" pistons, but there are no reasonably-priced 88Bs available (Berg lists theirs at $410 a set) making 90.5s look like a better choice - but 1956cc is well into the region where stock heater boxes are inadequate. Larger aftermarket boxes are available but they lack the "finnage" of stock ones so the heat output is less. Stock ones would be pretty much max'ed out at the 88x76 (1849cc) point but they'd work - people get away with them on mild 1915s, after all. But if you are going to buy bigger heater boxes, may as well go to 92x76 (2021cc), right? ;) ...once you jump off the cliff to build a stroker, the challenge becomes deciding where you're going to stop.
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wizrod
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Re: Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by wizrod »

Hi Marc,

92x69 certainly seems to stack up from most angles, not least, from a $$$ point of view! Those extra few MM of stroke soon get expensive, especially since I'm not after building a(nother) monster engine ;)

I get my HP fix from the turbo/injected 2165 lump in my volksrod, so the Bus's motor just needs to be drive-able, reliable & (relatively!) economic.

I can feel a plan coming (& a parts list) together.

Thanks again for sharing your insight & experience!

cheers

Paul
Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by Ol'fogasaurus »

" ... I don't intend to go overboard re: port matching - I'd just open them up (if at all) to match the IDF manifolds I already have, which are basic (EMPI, I think?) castings. Really, I'm more interested in smoothing the ports to improve the flow (inlet & exhaust). If I can eliminate whatever step there may be between manifold & inlet port at the same time, so much the better...."

This is where my point on port matching is derived from: the accidental going overboard. The going into the head and manifold ~ (roughly) 1/2" is the standard distance recommended but it is the "or so" part that can create the problems. Years ago I bought a freshly rebuilt engine from a friend of my late step-son that he had rebuilt by a so called "professional'. He had endowed the Baja it was in (front over back) and lost interest in it. When the engine failed on me I tore it down and it was not an 1835 like he and later I paid for but a stock dual port. The heads were a cheap set of heads that were so bad that even back then they were frowned on. Besides the heads being cracked (common with that brand of heads) they had been "port matched" and flowed worse than stock... much worse. The engine machinist I use (a VW guy) took one look at them and threw them away with some nasty comments :twisted: .

One of the other things that bothers me about port matching is that it can create a bulge in the matched area that can disturb the smooth air flow one is after which is why I mentioned the flow bench. It is the fixing or removing the bulge that gets one down into the critical areas.

My point is not to dissuade you from port matching but to point out (again) is the potential problems of easily going overboard. I have port matched a couple of water pumpers; the runners/ports are longer and the miss-match was much less than I have seen some in the VW miss-matches so any potential bulges were carefully smoothed out and, at the same time, I got rid of some casting flaws making sure I did not change any radiuses, mess with the bowls under the valves and... etc.; again, it doesn't take much to change the flow balance.

Without going into a long discussion I have even been told not to "port match that (particular) engine" as anything done would screw things up. Knowledge and opinions have changed a lot over the years.

I have talked to a couple of VW engine builders about port matching and home done reflowing of the heads and they were pretty adamant that it doesn't take much to screw things up.

I hope this helps. Again, it wasn't meant to tell you not to do it; more like pointing things out that can be a problem. Just be careful.

Lee
cbeck
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Re: Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by cbeck »

My engine builder told me a 74 ccw crank costs the same as a 69 ccw crank.If my new heads weren't here already I would be considering a set of cb's new panchito heads. Pat claims it is not how much his heads flow, but how well they flow. [port velocity]
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Marc
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Re: Planning a rebuild...looking for a little more pulling power.

Post by Marc »

Ol'fogasaurus wrote:" ...I have talked to a couple of VW engine builders about port matching and home done reflowing of the heads and they were pretty adamant that it doesn't take much to screw things up...
Gee, I must be awfully lucky then ;) My shade-tree engines with home-ported heads have outperformed Autocraft motors on the track. It's hard to screw up a Mini-D.
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