Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
- Piledriver
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
What oil pressure are you actually seeing at hot idle?
(I reread everything and missed it)
The stock idiot lights are supposed to go off at ~7-9 psi, but in reality they're all over the place.
Sandeep ran a CB pump with zero issues on his turbo T4 IIRC.
One thing that has come up is you really need a much bigger fitting & line from the tank into the pressure stage of the pump than the one it's tapped for, according to several folks who have run them successfully.
The CB pump is also easily modified to use external plumbing, or convertible into a stage and a half.
(26mm "normal" wet sump pump w/21mm scavenge, for the upwind rocker box or a turbo, feed back to the sump)
(I reread everything and missed it)
The stock idiot lights are supposed to go off at ~7-9 psi, but in reality they're all over the place.
Sandeep ran a CB pump with zero issues on his turbo T4 IIRC.
One thing that has come up is you really need a much bigger fitting & line from the tank into the pressure stage of the pump than the one it's tapped for, according to several folks who have run them successfully.
The CB pump is also easily modified to use external plumbing, or convertible into a stage and a half.
(26mm "normal" wet sump pump w/21mm scavenge, for the upwind rocker box or a turbo, feed back to the sump)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
I think I will put larger fittings on the feed line. If anything, i will go ahead and enlarge the AN fitting that is on there. I do not think there is room for a larger fitting, but there is room for opening the I/D on the current fittings. I am actually interested in that accusump also.
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
I dont have idiot lights . I have a bosch pressure sensor... It drops off to 5 psi at 180 degrees at idle after a 1/4 mile run. I take the pressure at the original port.
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
3literboy wrote:I dont have idiot lights . I have a bosch pressure sensor... It drops off to 5 psi at 180 degrees at idle after a 1/4 mile run. I take the pressure at the original port.
You may not actually have a problem then... but the bigger feedline/fitting may help greatly.
(In other words, you are worried over something you are not used to seeing, but it's actually normal//acceptable for what you built)
Racer Chris TIG welded MUCH larger fittings on his CB pump.
(both tank/pressure stage and scavenge outlet)
I have a slip fit/loktited/oringed + bolted 3/4" SS thin wall tube as an inlet, but I haven't used that version yet.
I'll try and find the threads on all this, but search is still a bit borken.
I suspect what you have will work fine with only minor improvements.
Here's some old stuff showing some of the mods
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php ... wed#804176
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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- Posts: 87
- Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 7:23 pm
Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
Piledriver wrote:What oil pressure are you actually seeing at hot idle?
(I reread everything and missed it)
The stock idiot lights are supposed to go off at ~7-9 psi, but in reality they're all over the place.
Sandeep ran a CB pump with zero issues on his turbo T4 IIRC.
One thing that has come up is you really need a much bigger fitting & line from the tank into the pressure stage of the pump than the one it's tapped for, according to several folks who have run them successfully.
The CB pump is also easily modified to use external plumbing, or convertible into a stage and a half.
(26mm "normal" wet sump pump w/21mm scavenge, for the upwind rocker box or a turbo, feed back to the sump)
I looked at the pump inlet again and it does look like I can tap it out for a larger fitting. I am running 1/2 inch supply line. I think I will remove the pump and open the oil inlet to the limit. In fact I think instead of tapping it out, I am going to expand the inlet hole to within .060 of the boss edge and weld on a 3/4 inch aluminum barbless tube. Then flare the internal part of the housing so oil enters onto the gears much more. I think you are right, it just needs some blue printing within reason. As it is, only about 3/8ths of an inch of of channel hits the gears because the AN fitting hole is much smaller than a 1/2 inch. The gears are about 1.04 inches
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
Don't forget to "zero" lap the pump body and use a steel cover... A stock T1 cover usually works fine with a little lapping.3literboy wrote:Piledriver wrote:What oil pressure are you actually seeing at hot idle?
(I reread everything and missed it)
The stock idiot lights are supposed to go off at ~7-9 psi, but in reality they're all over the place.
Sandeep ran a CB pump with zero issues on his turbo T4 IIRC.
One thing that has come up is you really need a much bigger fitting & line from the tank into the pressure stage of the pump than the one it's tapped for, according to several folks who have run them successfully.
The CB pump is also easily modified to use external plumbing, or convertible into a stage and a half.
(26mm "normal" wet sump pump w/21mm scavenge, for the upwind rocker box or a turbo, feed back to the sump)
I looked at the pump inlet again and it does look like I can tap it out for a larger fitting. I am running 1/2 inch supply line. I think I will remove the pump and open the oil inlet to the limit. In fact I think instead of tapping it out, I am going to expand the inlet hole to within .060 of the boss edge and weld on a 3/4 inch aluminum barbless tube. Then flare the internal part of the housing so oil enters onto the gears much more. I think you are right, it just needs some blue printing within reason. As it is, only about 3/8ths of an inch of of channel hits the gears because the AN fitting hole is much smaller than a 1/2 inch. The gears are about 1.04 inches
(or the EMPI steel full flow cover with a lot of lapping)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 7:23 pm
Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
Piledriver wrote:Don't forget to "zero" lap the pump body and use a steel cover... A stock T1 cover usually works fine with a little lapping.3literboy wrote:Piledriver wrote:What oil pressure are you actually seeing at hot idle?
(I reread everything and missed it)
The stock idiot lights are supposed to go off at ~7-9 psi, but in reality they're all over the place.
Sandeep ran a CB pump with zero issues on his turbo T4 IIRC.
One thing that has come up is you really need a much bigger fitting & line from the tank into the pressure stage of the pump than the one it's tapped for, according to several folks who have run them successfully.
The CB pump is also easily modified to use external plumbing, or convertible into a stage and a half.
(26mm "normal" wet sump pump w/21mm scavenge, for the upwind rocker box or a turbo, feed back to the sump)
I looked at the pump inlet again and it does look like I can tap it out for a larger fitting. I am running 1/2 inch supply line. I think I will remove the pump and open the oil inlet to the limit. In fact I think instead of tapping it out, I am going to expand the inlet hole to within .060 of the boss edge and weld on a 3/4 inch aluminum barbless tube. Then flare the internal part of the housing so oil enters onto the gears much more. I think you are right, it just needs some blue printing within reason. As it is, only about 3/8ths of an inch of of channel hits the gears because the AN fitting hole is much smaller than a 1/2 inch. The gears are about 1.04 inches
(or the EMPI steel full flow cover with a lot of lapping)
What do you mean by zero lap? Are you talking about the clearance between the top of the gears and the cover?
This is the pump I am using http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=189
I think I will detail it a little.
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
I think I know what you mean. Sand the face of the pump body until the gears hit without a gasket, then check to see if there is any gap between the gears and the cover. It should have only about 2 thousandths clearance since the housing will expand.
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
3literboy wrote:I think I know what you mean. Sand the face of the pump body until the gears hit without a gasket, then check to see if there is any gap between the gears and the cover. It should have only about 2 thousandths clearance since the housing will expand.
You got it. If you HAVE ~2-3 thou clearance, skip the paper gasket and use a smear of Locktite 518.
If you zeroit, use the thin paper gasket for 2-3 thou (when tightened)
That's the same pump I've been playing with, mine is just hacked up to fit in between modded motor mounts of a 914, and to plug/eliminate the tiny internal passages in the CB pump.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 7:23 pm
Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
Here is what I think i will do. replace cover with steel. Tap next size bigger on inlet side and drill out center of fitting. Look at hole locations and add 10 or 15 percent area. Then block stock oil pressure regulator location, and fullflow wasser boxer case. Then add an external oil filter and external oil pressure regulator. I tyhink this will fix my oil pressure probleams at idle. I think you weld up one of the current oil filter holes up and tap the case. Do you have any ideas on blocking the current internal oil pressure regulator?
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
I checked out the wasser boxer oil pressure survey, and it looks like I have fairly normal pressure. Like you said, it may only take a few mods. I think I will start with a larger inlet fitting drilled out on the inside and a 3/4 inch feed line. I dont think I have to do anything to the spring. I think I will just run the idle at 2000 rpms so the K800s dont butch the lobes and lifters. I will tighten up the pump also. The low side is working fine. The high pressure side can be detailed and zeroed. The steel cover is a good Idea also. OK I am done on this subject.... Now I need to understand how the accusump works and where to tap into it
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
intresting reading ,as i have had the similar problem on one of my wbx engines.
fresh bearings,
i have 4,5- 5 bar at cold engine @ idle
when oiltemp reaches around 60 celsius the pressure seems to fall at more rapid rate and at hot engine/oil around 80-90 ceslius the oilpressure is only ~0.5 bar pr 1000rpm.and i have tried different oils, sanded the pump,swapped bypassvalve. and double checked readings with mechanical gauge.also tried differnet oilfilters
i uses the stock watercooled oilcooler
please post what u find out about the accusump and what hardware is needed, regarding valves etc. as im considering this soulution against the CB drysump setup (have started modified the pump)
thx
fresh bearings,
i have 4,5- 5 bar at cold engine @ idle
when oiltemp reaches around 60 celsius the pressure seems to fall at more rapid rate and at hot engine/oil around 80-90 ceslius the oilpressure is only ~0.5 bar pr 1000rpm.and i have tried different oils, sanded the pump,swapped bypassvalve. and double checked readings with mechanical gauge.also tried differnet oilfilters
i uses the stock watercooled oilcooler
please post what u find out about the accusump and what hardware is needed, regarding valves etc. as im considering this soulution against the CB drysump setup (have started modified the pump)
thx
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
If you wish to block off the factory relief, pull the piston/spring and discard...Pull plug towards the bottom of the relief bore and drill/tap/install plug in the return hole on the other side and tap/plug the outer hole next size up.3literboy wrote:Here is what I think i will do. replace cover with steel. Tap next size bigger on inlet side and drill out center of fitting. Look at hole locations and add 10 or 15 percent area. Then block stock oil pressure regulator location, and fullflow wasser boxer case. Then add an external oil filter and external oil pressure regulator. I tyhink this will fix my oil pressure probleams at idle. I think you weld up one of the current oil filter holes up and tap the case. Do you have any ideas on blocking the current internal oil pressure regulator?
THIS REALLY NEEDS TO BE DONE ON A DISSASSEMBLED MOTOR, as the return loops back to the input of the pump on a WBX or late T4.
This can also be cured with a modified pickup, Tencentlife showed us how, but again, block must be split to make sure it's clean..
You still need a final relief but you can likely turn down the Jaycee one, assuming it doesn't just bypass the filter.
Make sure the bypass oil goes to the DS tank, rather than the sump so it can deareate and you aren't fighting the scavenge pump.
(This can also be done using the stock relief if plugged internally using the outer plug w/a fitting back to the tank)
One more thing to check---
The pump should be a 2-5 thou crush fit in the case when case is torqued. Most are loose.
If the pump is loose, this will cause oil pressure loss and air suckage.
(not an issue w/dry sump, wet sump mostly)
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
I take it the the unused feed port in the case is plugged? backfeed around the pump is a common cause of poor idle pressure.
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Re: Wasser boxer versus new type 1 cases with 4 inch bore.
I think I will detail the pump before doing anything else. If i have to run the idle at 2000 rpm tha so be it. I have my jet drills. I have to open the jets back up to where I had them.