Jake,
After our discussion about nearly doubling the amount of power in my car, I began checking specs on my support components and the only thing that's coming up short is the "B" spec transaxle. Have you any plans to develop a swing axle friendly unit that can handle your proposed numbers-- or can your current "C" lump do the trick? It would be nice to have a more sophisticated shifter as well.
Also, from the "sweet spot" subject the other day, my MPH numbers for the 4,400 range the engine likes to live are 65 in third and 97 in fourth. It's a much higher comfort plateau than I had imagined-- and although the noise really picks up the engine still feels quite understressed.
Regards, Dave
BEEFIER TRANSAXLE?
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
Dave,
when I had designed your tranny raios I was figuring on a tire size that was a tad taller than what the tires ended up being. Those revs should put you about 6 MPH higher than you are experiencing. while this isn't horrible and for most people would not be noted (Dave druises at 90-100 one hell of a lot of times!) because they would not be travelling over 85 MPH that often and certainly for not as long as you.
Making a gear ratio change while the car is apart for the next level of incredible updates won't be a problem. A simple ring and pinion change is all that would be needed along with a replacement for 3rd gear to work better with the added power of the Turbo powerplant.. No sweat, I can turn the tranny into a "C" spec unit more or less and base it on the current Quaiffe and the tranny case that you have.
The other choice would be to go with a new development that I'm cooking up. I am not willing to release info about this currently to the public but it would be a viable choice given the time we have to perfect it well enough for you to be one of my guinea pigs. Don't be suprised if this adds another gear to your vehicle and does it with a VW Type 1 transaxle
(and it's not a Berg based kit) You would be a perfect guy to give it a shot. (Beth's car is also getting one, as well as No H20 for his Black beast with it's future 2316 power) we'll talk more about this via email.
BTW- I crunched some numbers last night for the specs of the Turbo and I think I may be able to exactly double the power output of the current 2270 that you have. Intercooled EFI/ Direct fire Turbo all under the decklid of "Herbie X".
when I had designed your tranny raios I was figuring on a tire size that was a tad taller than what the tires ended up being. Those revs should put you about 6 MPH higher than you are experiencing. while this isn't horrible and for most people would not be noted (Dave druises at 90-100 one hell of a lot of times!) because they would not be travelling over 85 MPH that often and certainly for not as long as you.
Making a gear ratio change while the car is apart for the next level of incredible updates won't be a problem. A simple ring and pinion change is all that would be needed along with a replacement for 3rd gear to work better with the added power of the Turbo powerplant.. No sweat, I can turn the tranny into a "C" spec unit more or less and base it on the current Quaiffe and the tranny case that you have.
The other choice would be to go with a new development that I'm cooking up. I am not willing to release info about this currently to the public but it would be a viable choice given the time we have to perfect it well enough for you to be one of my guinea pigs. Don't be suprised if this adds another gear to your vehicle and does it with a VW Type 1 transaxle
(and it's not a Berg based kit) You would be a perfect guy to give it a shot. (Beth's car is also getting one, as well as No H20 for his Black beast with it's future 2316 power) we'll talk more about this via email.BTW- I crunched some numbers last night for the specs of the Turbo and I think I may be able to exactly double the power output of the current 2270 that you have. Intercooled EFI/ Direct fire Turbo all under the decklid of "Herbie X".
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
Thats the old paint...
Herbie X looks pretty good now, but Dave is going to enhance his appeal all over again..
Sometimes I feel like a drug dealer... when they get hooked on MassIve power, they just go nuts!
Herbie and Dave are great patients/customers...
he doesn't mind being the first guy in line for new goodies and he understands and accepts the risks of that well.
Herbie X looks pretty good now, but Dave is going to enhance his appeal all over again..
Sometimes I feel like a drug dealer... when they get hooked on MassIve power, they just go nuts!
Herbie and Dave are great patients/customers...
he doesn't mind being the first guy in line for new goodies and he understands and accepts the risks of that well.
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marekv8
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:50 pm
I'll have to rerun those numbers using the LM-1 and GPS, as I'm sure the dash mounted tach and speedo are off, even though they're both fresh from a NHS rebuild/recalibration. I was in no way complaining though, I had initially brought it up during that T1 vs. T4 discussion as I see the "loafing" at traditionally high duration ranges being a unique T4 benefit. It's probably more likely a benefit of the T4/EFI combo.
On the transaxle, I would think the 5th gear would not be needed due to the low top speed potential of my early Beetle. The current four speed reminds me of a 1978 930 with the long loud strokes. I'm open to anything though, so let me know what you have cooking when you're ready. Would something from Mendeola or the likes be a possibility as well?
Regards, Dave
On the transaxle, I would think the 5th gear would not be needed due to the low top speed potential of my early Beetle. The current four speed reminds me of a 1978 930 with the long loud strokes. I'm open to anything though, so let me know what you have cooking when you're ready. Would something from Mendeola or the likes be a possibility as well?
Regards, Dave
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
Dave,
Mendeola would be nice, but I'd say it's too "Over the top", even for you and the way you drive the car..
In your instance the 5th gear would be very tall, only used over 85 MPH and thats just because of the way you like to drive the car. I'd leave 1-4 gears close to what you have now, only I'd swap 3rd out to open up the gaps between 3rd and 4th for the Turbo to use better
Driving from Atlanta to baton Rouge in the rain at 90 MPH definately sets you apart from most customers and I REALLY like that...
I'd like to see you at 105MPH in 5th gear at 4K RPM.
Mendeola would be nice, but I'd say it's too "Over the top", even for you and the way you drive the car..
In your instance the 5th gear would be very tall, only used over 85 MPH and thats just because of the way you like to drive the car. I'd leave 1-4 gears close to what you have now, only I'd swap 3rd out to open up the gaps between 3rd and 4th for the Turbo to use better
Driving from Atlanta to baton Rouge in the rain at 90 MPH definately sets you apart from most customers and I REALLY like that...
I'd like to see you at 105MPH in 5th gear at 4K RPM.
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huw'sspeedster
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:22 pm
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marekv8
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:50 pm
From the way things are going, what seems "over the top" today will be barely cutting it trying to keep up with your T4 advancements. Another option I'm considering is starting fresh with another car utilizing IRS and possibly an alternate front suspension-- yet in the guise of a stockish early Beetle. Sound familiar? Herbie would soldier on as a naturally aspirated development mule/speed parts whore.
On the high speed run issue, I'm still workiing on bettering my combo to acheive higher stable speeds (rain or shine). That 105 mark is where the front end makes the first signs of getting light. If anyone has any suggestions or experiences with this, please chime in.
Thanks,
Dave
On the high speed run issue, I'm still workiing on bettering my combo to acheive higher stable speeds (rain or shine). That 105 mark is where the front end makes the first signs of getting light. If anyone has any suggestions or experiences with this, please chime in.
Thanks,
Dave
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am
Dave,
Keeping herbie as is doesn't sound bad at all. Give him a fresh paint job and maybe upgrade the heads and change out the gearing if you want....
Starting with another car would of course be the ultimate option as we could all get together on the aspects needed to creat the perfect combination for exactly what you want to do. In the amount of time it would take to build the second beast I could have more time to get the developments down to more of a science and supply something thats got more true testing behind it's composition.
Below is the car that I would love to see someone like you drive, because I know you would give it the wringing that it deserves every time you drive it.
Engine:
We'd keep it 78mm stroke, just for strength sake but would couple it to the Turbo 98mm cylinders that Charles and I have designed> these cylinders are mega thick and have one crazy wall thickness. These cylinders would be certainly chosen for their strength and head sealing surfaces. I am using them for another Turbo as we speak.
So here are the specs..
*78X98
*RAT "Under the deck" EFI Direct fire, 50% water-50%methanol injection/ Intercooled blowthrough Turbo kit with a dual ball bearing T-3/T-4 Hybrid Turbo & SDS EMS!!
*Heads LE 220T with twin plug ignition and 42X38 valves with our "Turbo" exhaust ports, similar to the Mighty Spyder.
*Cam RAT BHR -4 (thats a roller cam and lifters!)
*CR 7.5:1
*Pistons- JE/ LN Engineering Turbo dish
*Rods- RAT Billet (length TBD)
*Cooling would be with my newest DTM variant that helps make space for all these Turbo goodies(you'll see pics early next week, it has new cleaner look)
Thats the basic combo and I have already plotted it in dynomation, its a greatt, strong, reliable combo. The engine should put down 350+ RWHP and well over 400 on my dyno, all below 6,000 RPM! TQ will be incredible, probably close to 450 lb/ft on my dyno, maybe more! (dynomation says 410HP and 475 lb/ft of torque and it has yet to lie to me yet!)
Tranny:
Go straight to a Porsche 915 and have WEVO outfit it with their tricks and LSD. I can supply the conversion kit as I''m using the same one in my '60 project. The stock gear ratios would be fine with the combo, but according to tire size 5th might need a swap out.. Using the 915 I can set you up with my 915 conversion flywheel wedgemated to the crank as well and that means we can use the upgraded 915 aluminum pressure plate to hold the power and heep the mass down...
The car:
*IRS pan fully gussetedwith all seams welded and the usual tricks
*Full roll cage
*a copy of the double A arm front end that we are fabbing for my '60 project.
*The baddest brakes that money can buy with bias adjustable from the driver's seat
*Tub the rear to fit some real rubber under the stock fenders!
Chuck, my fabricator could build the cage, build the front end asembly, weld and gusset the pan and create the other structural upgrades that the power would demand.
It would be one hell of a car, I can't think of anything that would touch it to 120 MPH, except something that cost 300+K...
Between Dave, Chuck, Len, Charles and myself I'm quite certain we could Git R done quite easily...
I think it would take more than the normal one year time frame for this engine to become "Outdated".....
This car and my '60 could be brother and sister, but one would be Turbo and the other N/a, built on the same ideas and both appearing stock right down to the hubcaps..
Keeping herbie as is doesn't sound bad at all. Give him a fresh paint job and maybe upgrade the heads and change out the gearing if you want....
Starting with another car would of course be the ultimate option as we could all get together on the aspects needed to creat the perfect combination for exactly what you want to do. In the amount of time it would take to build the second beast I could have more time to get the developments down to more of a science and supply something thats got more true testing behind it's composition.
Below is the car that I would love to see someone like you drive, because I know you would give it the wringing that it deserves every time you drive it.
Engine:
We'd keep it 78mm stroke, just for strength sake but would couple it to the Turbo 98mm cylinders that Charles and I have designed> these cylinders are mega thick and have one crazy wall thickness. These cylinders would be certainly chosen for their strength and head sealing surfaces. I am using them for another Turbo as we speak.
So here are the specs..
*78X98
*RAT "Under the deck" EFI Direct fire, 50% water-50%methanol injection/ Intercooled blowthrough Turbo kit with a dual ball bearing T-3/T-4 Hybrid Turbo & SDS EMS!!
*Heads LE 220T with twin plug ignition and 42X38 valves with our "Turbo" exhaust ports, similar to the Mighty Spyder.
*Cam RAT BHR -4 (thats a roller cam and lifters!)
*CR 7.5:1
*Pistons- JE/ LN Engineering Turbo dish
*Rods- RAT Billet (length TBD)
*Cooling would be with my newest DTM variant that helps make space for all these Turbo goodies(you'll see pics early next week, it has new cleaner look)
Thats the basic combo and I have already plotted it in dynomation, its a greatt, strong, reliable combo. The engine should put down 350+ RWHP and well over 400 on my dyno, all below 6,000 RPM! TQ will be incredible, probably close to 450 lb/ft on my dyno, maybe more! (dynomation says 410HP and 475 lb/ft of torque and it has yet to lie to me yet!)
Tranny:
Go straight to a Porsche 915 and have WEVO outfit it with their tricks and LSD. I can supply the conversion kit as I''m using the same one in my '60 project. The stock gear ratios would be fine with the combo, but according to tire size 5th might need a swap out.. Using the 915 I can set you up with my 915 conversion flywheel wedgemated to the crank as well and that means we can use the upgraded 915 aluminum pressure plate to hold the power and heep the mass down...
The car:
*IRS pan fully gussetedwith all seams welded and the usual tricks
*Full roll cage
*a copy of the double A arm front end that we are fabbing for my '60 project.
*The baddest brakes that money can buy with bias adjustable from the driver's seat
*Tub the rear to fit some real rubber under the stock fenders!
Chuck, my fabricator could build the cage, build the front end asembly, weld and gusset the pan and create the other structural upgrades that the power would demand.
It would be one hell of a car, I can't think of anything that would touch it to 120 MPH, except something that cost 300+K...
Between Dave, Chuck, Len, Charles and myself I'm quite certain we could Git R done quite easily...
I think it would take more than the normal one year time frame for this engine to become "Outdated".....
This car and my '60 could be brother and sister, but one would be Turbo and the other N/a, built on the same ideas and both appearing stock right down to the hubcaps..
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marekv8
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:50 pm
Nice answer Jake-- the chance to design and build a complete vehicle from scratch would eliminate most of the limitations I've faced building Herbie piece by piece. Creating a platform that could truly make use of RAT power vs. limiting it severely would certainly open more eyes and ears to the T4 experience.
And then I'd drive the snot out of it.
Regards,
Dave
And then I'd drive the snot out of it.
Regards,
Dave
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11895
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
In the way of stability for your bug....bear this in mind. Technically....some would describe the shape of a VW bug...in cross section......as an airfoil. Problem is that it is upside down.
The shape of a basic airplane wing....round on top....flat on bottom...creates lift because the top round sheet of letal is longer than the straight flat sheet on the bottom. The air moves over the top of the wing slower than the bottom because it has farther to go. This creates turbulence under the wing that pushes it upward. Wings have various bumps and bulges to their cross section...to tune the speed that air is forced over it.
There is a type of wing shape....called "super-critical" ...wherin toward the top rear of the wing...there is a thicker "cord" on top . Now...again thinking of a bug body in cross secton......sound familar? The super-critical wing has a peculiar aspect....that when the leading edge of the wing is lifted...is creates excessive frontal lift...casing the leading edge to want to pitch up.
The cross section of a bug...is a wing. Flat on the bottom....round on the top. It creates lift by forward motion. Lowering the front slightly helps (called an anhedral angled wing). But...bear in mind that most of your weight is in the rear. Force and enertia cause the front to lift as you drive (dihedral angle)....this creates even more lift force. You need stiffer springs in the rear to keepp the lift from compressing the rear springs and exacerbating the lift/shape problem.
As for the bug shape being supercritical....the front hood section is like the leading edge of the top of a wing. The bulge past the windshieldtoward the rear.....is equivalent to the supercritcal bulge of the supercritical wing.
This also makes sense.....as testing has found that if you were to install an airfoil on a bug....the place to install it....is on the roof.....about at the line where the rear of the seat rails end.
It can also help to add humps to the bottom of the car. It increases the length the air must travel and breaks up the lift.
Also....if you have wider than stock wheels....you must have increased toe-in as well to make sure that the extra frontal force applied by that extra width of rubber.....which causes more wheel spread and toe-out...is counteracted for. Also....the faster you drive...teh more frontal force and wheel spread. You may want some semblence of excessive toe-in to safely counteract the wheel spread from the ultimate speed you want to reach. Ray
The shape of a basic airplane wing....round on top....flat on bottom...creates lift because the top round sheet of letal is longer than the straight flat sheet on the bottom. The air moves over the top of the wing slower than the bottom because it has farther to go. This creates turbulence under the wing that pushes it upward. Wings have various bumps and bulges to their cross section...to tune the speed that air is forced over it.
There is a type of wing shape....called "super-critical" ...wherin toward the top rear of the wing...there is a thicker "cord" on top . Now...again thinking of a bug body in cross secton......sound familar? The super-critical wing has a peculiar aspect....that when the leading edge of the wing is lifted...is creates excessive frontal lift...casing the leading edge to want to pitch up.
The cross section of a bug...is a wing. Flat on the bottom....round on the top. It creates lift by forward motion. Lowering the front slightly helps (called an anhedral angled wing). But...bear in mind that most of your weight is in the rear. Force and enertia cause the front to lift as you drive (dihedral angle)....this creates even more lift force. You need stiffer springs in the rear to keepp the lift from compressing the rear springs and exacerbating the lift/shape problem.
As for the bug shape being supercritical....the front hood section is like the leading edge of the top of a wing. The bulge past the windshieldtoward the rear.....is equivalent to the supercritcal bulge of the supercritical wing.
This also makes sense.....as testing has found that if you were to install an airfoil on a bug....the place to install it....is on the roof.....about at the line where the rear of the seat rails end.
It can also help to add humps to the bottom of the car. It increases the length the air must travel and breaks up the lift.
Also....if you have wider than stock wheels....you must have increased toe-in as well to make sure that the extra frontal force applied by that extra width of rubber.....which causes more wheel spread and toe-out...is counteracted for. Also....the faster you drive...teh more frontal force and wheel spread. You may want some semblence of excessive toe-in to safely counteract the wheel spread from the ultimate speed you want to reach. Ray
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Class 11 streeter
- Posts: 4083
- Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:01 am
Apologies, this is taking the thread away from the topic.
Ray, could this work "nearly" as good as a roof mounted wing, and also be a cleaner install? Click on the link for a picture of the Osprey, the best one showing what I am thinking about. I am not posting the pic due to it's size, but look at the leading edge of the wing just above the black paint, there is a series of small spoilers fastened down to upset some of the lift the wing generates.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v ... y-usmc.jpg
Could that idea be adapted to the front fenders and hood of a beetle, possibly also on the roof just aft of the windshield?
Ray, could this work "nearly" as good as a roof mounted wing, and also be a cleaner install? Click on the link for a picture of the Osprey, the best one showing what I am thinking about. I am not posting the pic due to it's size, but look at the leading edge of the wing just above the black paint, there is a series of small spoilers fastened down to upset some of the lift the wing generates.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v ... y-usmc.jpg
Could that idea be adapted to the front fenders and hood of a beetle, possibly also on the roof just aft of the windshield?
So you think your project is taking forever eh? Well you've got nothing on me.....
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ZoSo914
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:07 pm
I beleive what you are looking at on that V-22 are vortex generators. Which if I understand correctly are used to break up the boundry layer over the top of the wing increasing control effectivness at low speeds.(this explains it well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_generator) How about some sort of diffuser? if you could figure out how to make it work. It wouldnt be as ugly as a spoiler and still reduces lift.
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MASSIVE TYPE IV
- Posts: 20132
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 12:01 am