Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

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FJCamper
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Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by FJCamper »

Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

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Above: No handbrake, VARGA caliper kit. This version is for parts compatibility with stock VW parts, and makes use of readily-available high performance pads. Rear disks do not need to be cross-drilled, as most braking effort is still done by front brakes.

It was as much marketing pressure as performance issues that made Porsche change to disk brakes.

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Above: The famous Spyders used drum brakes.

Porsche was one of the last, if not the last, European sports car maker to adopt disk brakes for its street models. The 1963 356B Carrera 2 featured four-wheel disks, simultaneous with the 6-cylinder 1963 901/911 (with 4-wheel disks) which was already in production. The 1964 356C's (last of the 356's) were disks all around.

Even the Porsche factory racer, the 550 and 550A's were drums all around, until the 1962 RSK's (8-cylinder air-cooled) got four-wheel disks. By comparison, Jaguars had introduced disk brakes on their racing C-Types in 1953, and the 1961 street E-Type was all disk.

Porsche had a reason for delaying intro of disk brakes. The big finned aluminum drums stopped the cars just fine even from racing speeds, they were lighter than the common commercial Dunlop-made ATE-design disks, and the rear drum handbrake system was simple and efficient. Plus, Porsche had its own disk brake design it thought superior to the ATE brakes, but the reality check was it was best to use ATE disks for parts compatibility and servicing.

In 1966, US export VW Type 3's came with disk brakes, and the Karmann Ghia got them in 1967. But both only had front disk brakes, not rears.

For years now, four-wheel disk brake conversion kits have been available for VWs. Installed properly, they work great. Here's the pro and con list for converting.

PRO

1. Quick pad changes at the track or in the driveway.
2. Easy visibility of all parts to see damage, leakage, etc.
3. Better brake cooling.
4. Better water shedding.
5. Better straight-line braking stability when hot.

CON

1. Rear handbrake system not available on some low-cost kits.
2. High performance rear brake pads unavailable or hard to find.
3. Rear disk and hand brake caliper unit heavier in many cases than rear drums.
4. Front disk-rear drum combo works great as is, + no master cylinder change.
5. Simple mods make rear drums more effective, such as slave cylinder upgrade and swept area drilling.

Image

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Above: Drilled drums for better cooling.


FJC
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Dale M.
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Dale M. »

And lug bolts replaced with studs....

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Very good move.....

One argument ( for sake of discussion) against after market rear disks is you can put stock type 3 drum brakes on rear of type 1 application and its all "bolt on" with no mods and you still have hand brake and you gain about 30% more rear brakes... Type 3 brakes are about 1/2 wider and about 1 inch larger in diameter than type 1...

Dale
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Gerrelt
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Gerrelt »

Another con with drums is that they are not self-adjusting.

I recently converted to rear disk brakes using 914 disks and VW Golf/Rabbit calipers, see: Link

Because I am using VW golf rear calipers, high performance brake pads are probably available. I didn't check.
And it has a handbrake system.
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FJCamper
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by FJCamper »

Hi Gerrelt,

I went to your linked site and saw the amazing work you did to create your own custom rear disk brake system, handbrake and all. I am impressed, and anybody who reads it should be impressed. I won't even go into your use of an Alfa engine. Guys, go take a look at what he has done.

Are you using your 19mm factory master cylinder, the one designed for disk/drum?

FJC
Gerrelt
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Gerrelt »

Hi FJC,

Thank you for the kind words!! But all I did was follow the instructions of the guy from sharpbuilt (except for the handbrake part, I made that up myself).

I used the standard master cylinder I allready had on my car. My car came equiped standard with disk brakes up front. So it had the matching master cylinder (which, I believe, is the only master cylinder sold today, there aren't any drum-brakes-only master cylinders for sale anymore).
So it's the standard one, and yes, it is 19 mm.

This is it:
Image
(note the "19" casted in the side)

I did notice I can now push the brake pedal a little bit further then with ( freshly adjusted) drums. But it's a very little bit and it isn't that much
that I need a different master cylinder.
It's probably because the calipers need a bit more brake fluid then the drum brake cylinders.

Greetings,
Gerrelt.
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FJCamper
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by FJCamper »

Image

Hi Gerrelt,

Your information on the 19mm master cylinder is valuable. It proves that 19mm disk/drum cylinder can be used with rear disks and work satisfactorily.

Most four-wheel disk conversions here advise use of (at least) the 20.6mm cylinder (Porsche Carrera 4 size). We in fact recently performed an experiment with one of the 20.6mm cylinders. We converted a four-wheel disk system back to a disk/drum and left the 20.6mm cylinder in place, and then took the car to Road Atlanta.

The 20.6 gave us no problems with rear drums.

By the way, the VW 19mm master cylinders are themselves a diameter upgrade from the original 17mm early Porsche 911 master cylinders.

FJC
Bruce2
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Bruce2 »

Beware, Gerrelt's car is a Super Beetle. While the SB MC has a 19mm bore, it has different stroke lengths compared to the Standard Beetle 19mm MC.

FJC, were you able to get a 19mm MC to work with the rear discs in your first pic at the top?
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FJCamper
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by FJCamper »

Hi Bruce2,

We have not yet turned a wheel on road or track with the four-wheel disk setup photographed on our 1970 Ghia. We are in fact just ready to bleed.

I have a front axle replacement to go yet (adj Puma back to stock), but we can bleed for pedal feel. That is not the same as actual track use, but will give us an indication.

We halfway expect to switch to a 20.6mm cylinder.


FJC
Bruce2
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Bruce2 »

The 4 wheel discs I use are stock KG on the front, and stock 914-4 on the rear. The fronts have a 40mm piston, the rears have a 33mm piston. This works with a stock 19mm MC.

With your setup, you have a larger piston on the rear. 40mm, same as your front, right? With that larger piston, it may be necessary for you to use the larger MC. It would be interesting to see if you could make the 19mm MC work.
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Buggin_74
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Buggin_74 »

Like Gerrelt I'm also running a rear disc kit with my stock master cylinder.

My bug was factory front disc so whether that has any effect I have no idea.
I'm using the Volksconversions Australia kit which uses Fiat 124 spider calipers, so OEM quality, easy to obtain pads and parts, has a good handbrake mechanism which uses stock cables and they are perfectly balanced with the stock front discs and stock master cylinder.

I'm not sure that what Bruce said applies to all standard vs super master cylinders.

All the standard beetles here with disc brake front seem to work well with the rear disc kit using the stock master cylinder as well.
Volksconversions has been selling the same kit for over 20 years.

One of the best upgrades I've made to my bug.
1974 Germanlook 1303 Suba-Beetle
Subaru EJ25 Boost R 17", 4 Wheel discs, Topline suspension and A/C
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Piledriver
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Piledriver »

A nice high hard consistent brake pedal makes for a much nicer to drive car.

Very nice work with those Golf calipers, hows the F/R bias?
Do you happen to know the piston dia on those calipers?
(and do the area calculations work the same on single piston sliders as for two piston opposed units?)

I was considering a rear disc swap for much the same reasons after installing my no longer needed BMW 2002ti 4 pots from my 914 onto my squareback, (the Pile 914 has a set of 996 TT wheels and brakes awaiting eventual installation)

Upgrading the T3 rear drums as Bruce suggested to larger Super beetle front wheel cylinders helped balance things out, but it's still a little too much front bias when the rears get out of adjustment, which doesn't take long as the only available rear shoes have garbage for linings, I have to adjust a LOT more often than every 2 years driving it 80 miles/day. :lol:
(more like every 2-3 weeks)

When installed on my 914, I found the 914 FRONT calipers installed out back made a perfect brake balance match for the BMWs out front, with the loss of the parking brake... :roll: but losing the std 914 rear calipers and their constant need for "venting clearance" adjustment made up for it. (The Golf calipers are a far better design)

The BMW up front with the factory 914 calipers out back was unsafe in the rain, far too much grip up front, esp as the rears got out of adjustment.

I guess I need to see how large the 914 front caliper pistons are and find a suitable modern rear caliper...
(I have plenty of 914 rear rotors handy)
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Bruce2
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Bruce2 »

Piledriver wrote: ..... but losing the std 914 rear calipers and their constant need for "venting clearance" adjustment made up for it.
This tells me you weren't using the hand brake enough. By pulling on the levers (every time you park), the venting clearance is automatically taken up.
I remember on one road trip in Mexico, one of the levers on my 914-4 calipers decided it didn't want to release when I let go of the e-brake handle. I would have get out of the car and reach underneath and grab it and pull it back to make it release. Since I was on a road trip, I didn't want to deal with that, so I stopped using the e-brake, parking it in gear all the time. After a few thousand miles of that, the pedal started getting closer to the floor. Eventually, it hit the floor with very poor braking. So I had to address the problem in a Pemex gas station's lot. When I pulled the wheel off, the venting clearance was several mm! Adjusting it fixed the low pedal problem. When I got home, I took the caliper off and freed up the lever. That was about 8-9 years ago, and I haven't set the venting clearance since.
I agree, the Golf caliper is a better design. But they didn't exist back in the olden days when I did the conversion.
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Bruce2 »

Buggin_74 wrote: I'm using the Volksconversions Australia kit which uses Fiat 124 spider calipers, so OEM quality, easy to obtain pads and parts, has a good handbrake mechanism which uses stock cables and they are perfectly balanced with the stock front discs and stock master cylinder.

I'm not sure that what Bruce said applies to all standard vs super master cylinders.
Do you know what size pistons those Fiat calipers use?

MC trivia:
AFAICT, there is a different MC for every brake configuration VW made. Up-over, we got Supers with 4 wheel drums, Standards with 4 wheel drums, and KGs with disc/drums. While the KG and Standard Bug are both Type 1s, the different front brakes meant the cars got different MCs from the factory. There were two differences. The drum MC had restriction drillings, the disc one didn't. The two had different length strokes between the two ccts.
Then the Super was different still. To differenciate it from a Standard or KG MC, they rotated the mounting flange. The bore is the same for all three, but the Super had a longer stroke for the front cct due to the larger dia wheel cylinders on the larger Super drums. Since Supers with discs had exactly the same brake parts as a KG, I would expect it's MC would have the same stroke lengths as a KG MC. Thus the only difference would be the rotated flange. (this is a guess)
Today, the KG MC is the only one we can get for Standards since it works just fine with a 4 wheel drum car. Even the Super MC works fine in a Standard. A buddy of mine had a new German Super MC leftover from his days owning a Super. Then when he built his Standard, he installed the Super MC at a funny angle. I didn't think it would bleed properly, but it did.
Manny
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Manny »

Gerrelt, great setup.
Same for a swing axle?
Gerrelt
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Re: Rear Disk Brakes Pro & Con

Post by Gerrelt »

Manny wrote:Gerrelt, great setup.
Same for a swing axle?
Thank you Manny.

I don't know if it will work on a swing axle. I think it will work, as drums are the same for standard and super beetles.
But you should e-mail mike at sharpbuilt (the seller of the brackets), maybe he can tell you.

See this site:
http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au/sharpbuilt1/page15.htm

A little down the page are the brackets. And at the bottom of the page is his e-mail adres.
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