Wilwood Dynalite Brake Upgrade

[H2OSB]

What about just spacing the rotor off the hat? Some simple shim washers from McMaster would do the trick.

Sounds like a good idea

https://www.mcmaster.com/#round-shims/=15qlezw

H2OSB

[Piledriver]

Next time I do this I wont bother with the cheap stamped steel hats:
They aren't paricularly flat in either plane, and take a lot of work to be even usable.
(3rd pic is on a new "out of the bag" stamped steel hat from Speedway, not a Wilwood, probably made by Allstar)
They also center on the bolts rather than the rotor hat registers, probably has ~.020" play.

On the first pic, 80 grit lapped the rotor bolt circle plane for about 10 min after that pic, and all that was after much quality time knocking off the really high spots with a hand held diamond hone block)

The stamped hats are cheap, and light, but you get what you pay for.

[Piledriver]

Took her for a drive and bedded the pads,(PFC #14s, work great cold) brakes actually work fine, despite the runout.
The runout kicks back the pads---requires a little more travel, pump once and high hard pedal.
Still not horrible, but not perfect, yet. Still need to replace the Chinese bearings in the hubs tomorrow.

I finally got around to rebuilding the used calipers, fully polished pistons/anti-rattle clips (to 12K grit mirror finish), new seals, a packet of Permatex ultra-gooey green silicone caliper lube and WS2 buffed into the metal sliding surfaces, they probably work better than new.

I may simply have made myself a victim of saving money at any cost, the steel hats i went with from Speedway are stamped and cheaper than the Wilwoods. ($30 vs. $38)

Wilwood and Colemans only make spun hats in the same dimensions, for little more money.
(probably for a good reason)
Those may have better uniformity--- on the stamped ones, even the center register varied from 3.070"-75, supposed to be 3.060", which is of course the exact size of the centering rings I made...

I'll probably pick up a couple Wilwood spun hats locally and do a thorough compare vs. the two unused stamped ones I have. If they still suck I can easily return them, if they are good, lesson learned and I'm good to go.
(Ha... I can get Coleman spun hats, locally for $33 via Smileys Racing house brand, go figure)

Won't take long chucked up in the lathe. (might even be able to clean up the stamped ones)

For $200, you can get cast 2" offset NASCAR hats pre-machined for 5x130 from Colemans with a larger ID (more meat in outer edge of hubs) in the 8x7.62" pattern, but those only come in 12.19" OD or larger, which would require moving the calipers out, again, but may help someone else. (I have room, but the new rotors say "no", OTOH they were only $68 shipped 3 day all up)

The 12.19"/309.6mm setup would require 16"+ wheels.(the 11.75"//298mm setup I'm running MIGHT clear some 15" wheels)

Knowing what I know now, I may have gone with one of the common NASCAR rotor bolt patterns, even if new rotors cost a bit more, the NASCAR bolt pattern hats and even rotors are as common as salt and quite cheap used.

[GS guy]

Pile, what about the 1.96" offset Wilwood machined aluminum hats with blank bolt pattern? Those look to also run about $100 each (pricey - but a non wear item), very nicely made and hard black anodized finish in the 7" x 8 rotor bolt pattern. You'd have to DYI your own bolt pattern, but could get the 5x130 pattern in them that way.
Jeff

[Piledriver]

That or the 2.12" (with simple .125" caliper spacers) is current best option with my existing 8x7" rotors, but I'd like to know if the spun steel hats are straight and have proper tolerances, the stamped ones certainly aren't.

I'd also rather spend $66 than $200, the Wilwood aluminum hats are pretty but they are still cast aluminum.
(Wilwood also won't custom drill them, nor their blank billet hubs)

The Colemans 2" offset aluminum hats can be had pre-drilled 5x130 for an extra $15, end result is ~same price as the Wilwoods, but they are also different rotor pattern.
Will probably go there next time, the ID is larger on the 8x7.62" rotors, which will help on the hub side, more meat past the studs, 5x130 studs end up pretty close to the edge on the 8x7" hats.
Colemans have billet 6061T6 hats too, admittedly for far more $.

Just trying to document the ups/downs/options.

I'll ask Smiley himself for advice tomorrow, he's been selling race parts for ages.

[Piledriver]

So, chucked a pair of the Speedway stamped steel hats (both out of the bag, unmolested spares) on the lathe at work today for 5 minutes, found the following:
(actual mfr unknown, probably Allstar, they also make stamped hats, Speedway doesn't really make anything )

They were ~identical, and the rotor bolt holes were in the noise precise, dia and relative to outer edge.
That's the extent of the good news.

Axial to outer lip .012” tir
Axial to center of holes (ignoring stamp flash) .007 tir (if outer lip was same it would be passable)
Holes dia +/- .002
Rotor flange holes to outer edge (at surface) +/- .002
Rotor flange holes radial to outer edge/flange TIR .035.
Radial at hub flange shoulder TIR .025
The centering/register hole is off center ~ .025” from everything else
The register hole ALSO varies from round by .015” , 3.060-3.075” (3.060 is spec size.)

These stamped steel hats are not fit for purpose.
Basically, rotor bolt hole circle would be ~.025" radial runout with these particular stamped hats
The ones on the car seem to be about the same, but was not able to eliminate all variables on the car.

There is a small amount of play in the bolts<>holes so you might be able to cut it to ~.009” radial,(Wilwood max spec)
…if you could install/adjust/tighten rotor to hat on the lathe with dial indicator.

The axial runout is still effectively 2X total rotor spec, even after deburring/lapping flat, even assuming the radial runout could be brought in, and if the rotor itself was perfect... it's still whack.

Will be trying Smileys Racing Products Coleman-spun steel hats Friday.
If those check out reasonably, I'll run them, if not, they get returned and I order something cast or billet, but machined.
These are round, so it should not be rocket science if they get spat out of a CNC machine by the dozen.

Speedway will be getting an email...

[GS guy]

Those stamped hats sure sound barely marginal for intended use - on a 3500lb modified! I guess they need "cheap" parts since they probably do a LOT of "rubb'n" on track, so wheels and brake parts are throw-away items?

[Piledriver]

I guess so...

I'm bummed again...
The "Coleman spun steel" hats from Smileys appear indistinguishable from the stamped hats, visually and measurement-wise, they do not look remotely like spun parts.

The counter guys said "we never get any complaints" which tells me ~no one running ARCA Modifieds checks runout on their brakes, which I don't entirely believe. Maybe they just live with it, the axial runout is almost OK.

I'll contact Wilwood and Colmans and see if they guarantee any specs on their spun hats, and start looking for deals on machined hats. Unfortunately all the cheap used NASCAR hat sets require 10, 12 or 18 bolt rotors, none of which are 11.75"/298mm diameter.

[Piledriver]

"The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves"

So, still looking for reasonably priced hats, also occured to me I can easily run a 1" hat and flip the rotor over and get the ~same backspacing (needs to be ~1.080" but they make shims, right?)

1" hat---stronger/lighter etc.

In any case, started trying to dial in the rotor with the existing ~3" steel hats, taking advantage of the simple fact that they are STEEL HATS, and can be worked to some extent.

Initial runout mid friction surface R side .024", L .018, radial was over .030" both sides.
After beating the flange a bit in/out (will be replacing the Chinese bearings RSN anyway) it came down, but need trued back up flat.

Thus: The cheap steel hat runout fixing device.
It worked a lot better than it looks... Followed up with 80 grit on glass plate to make sure the rotor flange was really flat.

rotor_runout_fixer.jpg

The reusable zipties really just keep it attached to the jackstand, there is good freedom of movement.

Once you stop laughing, drivers side now has .004" axial runout, pass side is .009, I'll make another pass on that and it should be dialed. Radial runout is now <.010" both sides, just playing with the slop in the rotor/hat holes.

The hubs are dead nuts on, as are the hubcentric bits. The hat centering is still horked, but the rotors run true.

[ChadH]

I like it, that's thinking!

[Piledriver]

Took another pass at it on a sunny afternoon, passenger side@ .003" axial I can live with.
Radial runout is still funky, but the rotors are dead flat and true, so I'll live with it for now.
Brake balance F/R is ~perfect.

Final setup:
Front:
Current production but used Wilwood Forged internal (crossover line is an internal passage) Superlite, 4x1.25"/31.25mm
Pads PFC 14.
Rotors 1.25x11.75"//32x298mm Wilwood ultralights.
Modded stock spindle caliper mount to suit.(cut move and rewelded original top mount ear)
Lower mount hole was amazingly in the right place in both axes.

Rear: Brembo 944T/928 rear calipers
Pads: Pagid orange, came with the calipers, barely used.
I first used Mintex reds, not enough grab to match the new front setup, worked with 2002Tii front 4 pots on stock rotors.
If the rear gets too grabby in the wet as they fully bed in, I can swap the Mintex back in.
pistons 4x 1.1"/28mm, rotors 24x298mm generic.
Mounted as original on 86 944T rear arms.

The huge vented front brakes saved ~6 ounces from stock/BMW combo, even with the 1" spacer and extra set of studs.
2" hats and longer studs (with probably less spacer) would work well and lose a bit more weight.

The main advantage out back was for the 911 type drum-in-rotor parking brake with normal caliper--- The Jetta rear calipers are self adjusting but the action is in steps, so I would go from high hard pedal to not so much until it caught the next tooth on the ratchet. I hated that.
"Normal" non-parking brake calipers are inherently self adjusting, so provide consistent pedal.

Worth it? Yes, with fat, reasonably sticky tires.
Even with the all-season Cooper Xeon RS3-As it stops like I caught the cable on a carrier landing, and with very low pedal effort, and great "feel" for the limit which is hard to describe. I can make all 4 tires slide a little bit without locking with minor effort.

Looking at the Allstar cast/machined aluminum hats, extra beefy and available in 3" or 2.5"... but easily turned down to 2" (maybe even 1.080") at work, and the 5x5 bolt pattern version w/5/8" stud clearance only needs a few strokes of a file for 5x130. (OK, nasty rattail and hard strokes, but doable) Still $70 ea. May also center the rotor properly, rather than on the bolts, which is silly as the rotors have machined registers. Investigating...

Was having some issues with side to side balance/pulling under max effort braking, another bleed cured.

With a dual diagonal brake setup, air in one side can cause an imbalance under heavy braking, the pedal still felt fine.
Never though about it before. Most later VWS had this: The T3 did not, but mine was as I split it/ran a second line for the previous dual circuit BMW front calipers.

[GS guy]

That reads as: SUCCESS! to me Pile. Your determination saw it through.
The last big weight savings will be replacing the steel/iron hubs with aluminum...

While I can fully understand why someone wouldn't want to mix and match English-dimension parts with metric with the myriad of adapters needed, the huge aftermarked for American-based hot-rod/racer bits is hard to ignore. A custom VW spindle with MII axle stub and brake mounting would be just about perfect (in my mind at least). Then offer a matching aluminum hub with Ford/Chevy/Porsche bolt patterns - Done.

Your solutions do offer inspiration for what can be done for minimal $$$!
Jeff

[Piledriver]

Thanks.
I actually drilled the calipers for the 12mm factory bolts, were even the correct length.
The 10mm bubble flare to AN3 adapter for the brake lines were <$5, and the prefab SS/Teflon Goodridge brake lines were ~same $ as stock Chinese replacements.

My only regret is due to the sorry quality of the stamped steel hats, I originally picked those up as they are about the right offset for the rear with stock arms and T3 hubs. The spun hats might have worked far better.

In retrospect I should have picked up a set of used NASCAR 2" offset hats for the front, but I wanted to see if it could be done on the cheap with (mostly) new parts.

All prices as shipped
Pair of decent used calipers $160
Pair of new rotors $68
Hats around $60 (bought w/other unrelated parts)
Pads I splurged and bought new PFC #14 pads $98.
Brake lines and adapters $40
Caliper bolts, caliper seals, caliper grease etc $30.

[Piledriver]

Had it apart again today to do the bearings etc, even bolted on my 225/35-18s on the 8" Twists for fun, looked ridiculous but they are actually almost exactly the same dimensions as the 16x6 with fat 205/55-16 due to the latter having a sidewall.

Everything works about as perfect as I could have hoped, but I'm determined to get 6061T6 hubs on there and an elegant rotor mount setup even if involves welding on new spindle spuds. The setup works but there are too many... layers of stuff to make it work.

The CB aluminum 5x130 hubs might be a gimme: I will be contacting them to see if they sell just the hubs and ideally can provide a drawing or dimensions. They use a smallish 5 bolt circle for the rotor, many of the Wilwood hubs do the same, with reasonably priced adapters to most all(?) Wilwood rotors...just not sure if its the same bolt circle or what the offset is. http://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/4182.htm then look at https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-300-3099
I do suffer from being an optimist, but it looks doable.

The "Pinto/Mustang2" stubs seems to be hard to get by themselves, Speedway Engineering may be the only source.
The interesting thing is the Pinto front axle cross section size is larger than any other listed on the Wilwood hub spec sheet, save for an F150 truck. Its in between ball joint and "combo" size at 35mm inner and 22mm outer.

Allegedly there are bearings to put the Pinto hubs on Ball Joint axles... I just haven't found them yet.

The "large GM" Impala axle is pretty common, but is much smaller.

The alloy hub research might be best in its own thread?

[Piledriver]

So... The ONLY hub that Wilwood makes that takes an A1 bearing (like a BJ stub) is for a Chevy Vega...
The inner bearing would require a sleeve on the axle to go from 1.1417 to 1.25". Very Doable.
AFAICT other dimensions appear ~sane. Its predrilled for 5x4.50 and 4.75" patterns, OD may be too small for 5x130.

It can take a 3/8" nonvented rotor or hat mount, the rotor offset may be funky checking drawing.

By the same token, I suppose the BJ stub could be ~easilysleeved for the Pinto hub,(A12/13 bearings) which comes in a variety of hat type/offset and bolt patterns. The vega hub is what it is.