Wilwood Dynalite Brake Upgrade

[GS guy]

Pyle,
From my notes comparing MII - VW BJ: (in inches)
Inner seal surface dia: 1.937 - 1.587
Inner brg ID: 1.375 - 1.139
Outer brg ID: 0.864 - 0.685
Inner seal flange to threads: 3.125 - 2.625 (that's ~ inner to outer bearing, outer edge distance)

The big "hitch" is the ~1/2" extra length of the MII spindle vs VW. Bearings could be shimmed/sleeved, but you can't make the VW spindle stub "longer".

[Piledriver]

You actually could with an internally threaded 17>22mm extension, but that's the main reason I'm looking at other spindle stubs to press in/weld.

Large GM==common as salt. Colemans makes them.
Pinto == commonly used but usually had as an assy. Speedway engineering lists them.
Vega -- no one seems to make stubs (only did a quick Google), there are probably a lot fewer Vegas on the road than Pintos/descendants or ACVWs for that matter.

The VW stuff (BJ, "combo" and "King Kong") can all be had as stubs cheap, but the 5x130 CB aluminum hub setup for BJ is the ~only (potentially) reasonably priced off-the-shelf BJ axle setup so far, and its a completely baked product that will bolt on, just add a rotor adapter of some description.
The rotor adapter is simple enough that it can be made if push came to shove.

The off-road bits generally run high>insane priced and are totally non-standardized between manufacturers and even different setups from same manufacturer.

[GS guy]

Those Pinto stubs look interesting, Speedway Engr PN 5300-9. Seem to run about $75 each.
From what I'm reading, the MII brake rotor fits on the Pinto/Bobcat spindle and they apparently are the same dimensionally - so a Wilwood (or other) MII aluminum hub/rotor should work on those spindles as well. Just need to bore out the original spindle for press-in fit then a good weld around the back-side. From what I remember, the Wilwood MII set-up does increase scrub a little, thinking about 1/4" per side IIRC. I went with a Chassis Shop version who said theirs did not increase scrub over stock. I have no way to really tell, since my front suspension is so customized anyway!
Speedway has the aluminum MII hubs for only $125 ea!
http://static.speedwaymotors.com/pdf/ds719.pdf
Still, keeping with the original VW spindle/set-up the CB hubs look like maybe the best "closest to bolt-on" bet? Don't have to switch to American bolt-pattern wheels either...

[Piledriver]

The pinto hubs can be had with single 5x5 pattern, plenty of room to add 5x130, but its still something extra you have to do.$$$

The CB hubs are most tempting, as they are 100% done and bolt on, just need rotor adapters, will try and contact CB tomorrow.
The only question are what is rotor attachment bolt pattern and offset.

[Piledriver]

OK, my one remaining functional neuron fired while perusing the CB website:
They also make a link pin version of the 5x130 aluminum hubs.

No, not looking at installing link pin stubs...
50 years of off-road ACVW development to the rescue...
The very beefy and widely available combo spindle spuds are in play, as they only fit link pin hubs via non-stock (but std) metric bearings. (link pin had big old ball bearings, so the hub ID is ~hugeish)

Eyeballing a spare set of spindles, I can bore them press in and weld the stubs with about 25-30mm offset vertically and get some (slight) zero-extra-offset drop spindles out of the deal, and maybe add a bit of trail.

Forces me to replace spindle spuds, but its a relatively sane option, and much beefier/cheaper than Pinto spuds, or apparently any common domestic front spindle not bolted to a truck.
Just have to find some with a long shank for full support.

[Piledriver]

Sadly, CB doesn't sell the aluminum hubs and matching rotors separately, although they probably sell just replacement rotors for the hubs.
The rotor bolt spacing is "approximately 5x4.25"

For anyone needing 3/8" non-vented rotors the existing setup would be fine with Wilwood dynalites or similar.
(superlights are .81 or .125" rotor width only, although some in-between sizes are covered with various thickness pads that are available, 3/8" isn't)

These can be had for BJ spindles and there is a linkpin version, which will work with combo spindles given the right bearings..

The supplied rotor is drilled and slotted, so probably not suitable for road racing duty, street and off-road perhaps..

Almost worth it on-sale, but they don't have pics of the backside of the hub w/o rotor.
If they have not been lightened on the backside the various Wilwood rotor adapters would work adding a set of 5x3.88" holes.

[kangaboy]

I realize this thread has turned into Pile's brake saga, so I don't want to take away from that, but just wanted to get some feed back on the addition of some Wilwoods on my stock BJ/Drum spindles.
Firstly I realize I need to get some disc spindles, and they run for around $100 pair from CIP1. Thats fine.
So, with those, I now need a mount for the Wilwood calipers. With the VDubEngineering mount, I would have to use Wilwood Dynalite 5.25″ 4 pistons calipers. Those seem huge, but I have some 195 tires up front, so hopefully it will stop before they lock up.
After seeing the price of the VDub mounts (~$c120) I started searching and found these MOUNTS for way cheaper. I have the means to drill and tap to fit appropriately, but without having the piece in from of me, I can't tell if the fitment is acceptable. After having the caliper mounts and calipers mounted, the lines and adapters are easy.
And then lastly I saw THIS KIT, which looks like it bolts right up to the disc spindle.
I'm having trouble putting my thoughts to paper right now, but it looks like I need disc spindles and some new rotors either way.
I like the last option the best I think, with new rotors and spindles...but if anyone has anything to comment, please let me know.
I've read through the whole thread, and I'm sorry if any of this is repetitive, but I'm just trying to get a foot hold on this whole thing so I can move forward. I'm not apposed to spending money for quality, but I just don't want to justify spending a $1000+ on the airkewld or vintage v-dub kits.

[Piledriver]

The external size of the caliper frame translates into strength/rigidity, and larger/longer lasting pads.
The piston diameters are mostly what sets brake bias.
The weight distribution of a ACVW is really good for max braking, around 60/40 at 1G, depending on how low the car is.
http://brakepower.com/

Getting the caliper offset right is the key, I can't check t1 spindles as I don't have any although I do have a set of dynalites and those weld on mounts, you may need to trim and weld those behind another plate that bolts onto the drum spindle backing plate holes.
You can have the mounts welded on drum spindles, although strongly consider drop spindles if lowering the car at all. (suggested)

The Vintage VDub kit looks like a reasonable bolt-on deal.
It should work with the CB aluminum hubs/rotors if you wanted to go 5x130.

[kangaboy]

You can have the mounts welded on drum spindles, although strongly consider drop spindles if lowering the car at all. (suggested)

I have a set of weld in adjusters I was going to put on my beam this summer. Are you saying that it is better practice to use the drop spindles instead? This would be viable option now, as I'm looking to get a new set of disc spindles with this brake upgrade.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D22%2D2951

The Vintage VDub kit looks like a reasonable bolt-on deal.
It should work with the CB aluminum hubs/rotors if you wanted to go 5x130.

I'm looking to keep it 4x130 for now, as I would like to use my wheel/tire combo I'm currently running. If I changed to anything in the future, it would likely be 4x100.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D407%2D075

Edit: Added links

[GS guy]

FWIW - I preferred the welded in adjusters vs. dropped spindles. Most swear by the spindles, but when I used them (keeping in perspective this was a good 15+ years ago) in conjunction with an adjustable beam, it sat "too" low, with beam adjusted all the way up. Not sure why, but this caused some weird high-speed handling quirks I didn't like (neutral to mild-oversteer with a 2-3mph change!). Swapped back to reg spindles and lowered the beam just where I wanted it, handling quirk went away and gained some tire clearance under the fenders. YMMV!

Pretty sure the VDub Engineering mounts are for Drum brake spindles - as mentioned in the description. From my own adaptation of Wilwoods to VW T1 spindles, the disc spindles cause more fitting problems and solve none (I had both available to adapt to). The caliper winds up lining up with nothing on the disc spindle, and the mounting surface is wrong. You basically need a mounting bracket that attaches to the drum backing plate mounts, gets out past the steering arm, then offsets inboard to attach the caliper to match a VW disc rotor.

If you can fab/machine/weld your own brackets, then the Jegs bracket would be a good starting point. For bolt-on, I'd go straight to VDub's parts. The Wilwoods come in at least 2 different piston sizes, probably the smaller diameters would work best.
Jeff

[Piledriver]

The drop spindles are preferred as you still have full stock travel and geometry with a 2.5" drop, which is just about perfect for most folks, as it's reasonably low---and not low enough to cause problems getting over speedbumps with typical tires with actual sidewalls.

They can work fine with adjusters IF--Big IF- the adjusters are installed properly so you can go up OR down some or at least come up to stock height.
Many times the max height on front beams with preinstalled adjusters is much lower than stock, I have seen a 2" drop max setting. You can't really fix that.. sort of decision ..

[kangaboy]

They can work fine with adjusters IF--Big IF- the adjusters are installed properly so you can go up OR down some or at least come up to stock height.

Never thought of it like that. I will do my homework and decide whether the adjusters will be better, or if I dropping the front 2.5" with spindles will be easier. I just need to take a quick measurement and see what the wheel well gap is to make a decision. Anyone know off the top of their head how much movement (in inches) adjusters allow?

Pretty sure the VDub Engineering mounts are for Drum brake spindles - as mentioned in the description. From my own adaptation of Wilwoods to VW T1 spindles, the disc spindles cause more fitting problems and solve none (I had both available to adapt to)...

One of the reasons I was looking to get new spindles is because I didn't know if there was a way to mount the stock discs on a drum spindle...and I still don't. Is it just getting the correct size bearings? Or is it the actual spindle size that allows for discs to be mounted?

The Wilwoods come in at least 2 different piston sizes, probably the smaller diameters would work best.
Jeff

The VDubEngineering mount states that the lug mount is 5.25". The Wilwood Dynalite p/n 120-6808 has the correct lug mount (which is what GS guy used previously). Should I look at getting a caliper with a smaller piston size?

[Ol'fogasaurus]

I was doing, and documenting, an off-road BJ beam build which included adding adjusters plus I was posting too many pix; I ended up making a big mistake which I also documented. If you can find it there might be something in there you could use... maybe. The big mistake amounted to getting lost in the instructions and slipping into the K&L part of the siamesed instructions. If you decide to go with adjusters read either the included or on line instructions a couple of times then black out the parts that deal with King and Link.

As far as the adjusters go for lowering: if it were me I would go with the dropped spindles first due to alignment issues. If you rig is not low enough then there are shorter tires before adjusters.

Also remember that most towns now have big and little turtles for markers on the streets. I bent up the cross member on one of my lowered cars on one of the big turtles. Also remember the transition over sidewalks and having to take them at an angle .

[Piledriver]

A BJ "disc" spindle simply has an ear and mount holes for the caliper.
the actual spindle spud/bearings are identical for drum or disc.
IIRC the disc takes a different seal (has been a long time) but the id is same.

The lug mount is a different thing from piston size.

On a bug, I'd assume they supply the 1 3/8" piston calipers, but you are going to want the late front wheel cylinders in the rear brakes for balance
1.375 fronts would work well with 1.12x4 rears.. 1.25x4 fronts would probably be a better choice on a lowered car or ghia, jacked up car like a baja might want bigger up front.

1.12 or 1.25" pistons are not an option on Dynalites, 1.38 are the smallest pistons offered.
Should work well with the typical MK4 Golf rear calipers w/parking brakes.

[kangaboy]

A BJ "disc" spindle simply has an ear and mount holes for the caliper.
the actual spindle spud/bearings are identical for drum or disc.
IIRC the disc takes a different seal (has been a long time) but the id is same.

Well that's awesome. I've been doing some piecing together the kit I would like to use, and after adding everything up, it doesn't save me any money compared to the Vintage VDubs kit. I gave them a call to see if I could switch out the 5x120 rotors and put in some 4x130 instead, but they mentioned they are short staffed and couldn't get to the phones.
And why did you have to mention mk4 brakes on the back?! Now I wanna go to the junkyard and strip a golf and see what I can do with it...

PS...can I simply swap my stock dia. front brake cylinders to the back when I do this conversion?