'71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

For road racing, autocrossing, or just taking that curve in style. Oh yea, and stopping!
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ChadH
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by ChadH » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:15 am

ChadH wrote:
Jadewombat wrote:
ChadH wrote:That's exactly what I was thinking, but maybe even raise the shift box higher.

Honestly, I cant say it's my original concept. I've bee looking all over the "webs" for ideas. You picture probably is what inspired me, and I just forgot I saw it. 8)

I was digging through some photos this morning. Is this what you mean? These guys are from Austria and on STF here occasionally:
I've seen the videos - that car is my inspiration (even though mine won't even be close.) I think he's running a fancy sequential gearbox. The picture is good food for thought, and I'd like to set up the shifter close to the wheel as shown, but his whole setup is way beyond what I'll be able to do. 8)

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FJCamper
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by FJCamper » Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:11 pm

Steering Wheel to Shift Knob Reach

Hey, these guys are doing it right. The shorter the reach from the steering wheel to the shift knob, the quicker you can shift. The only thing that beats it is F1-type paddle shifters.

We don't do this on our historic racing Ghia because we are preserving our period-correct look. It could be done to our LeMons Superbug but it would take too long to retrain our drivers. They took a week to get used to lack of rear brakes. Separation anxiety.

The problem in the pits with these guys is they can cry on cue.

FJC

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Fiatdude
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by Fiatdude » Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:24 pm

There is a guy in San Diego that makes a Hydraulic shifter for type ones -- turns into a motorcycle type shifting pattern -- still have to use clutch

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ChadH
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by ChadH » Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:01 pm

Fiatdude wrote:There is a guy in San Diego that makes a Hydraulic shifter for type ones -- turns into a motorcycle type shifting pattern -- still have to use clutch
Sounds interesting..It also sounds expensive, hard to adjust and finicky. :wink:

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Jadewombat
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by Jadewombat » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:15 pm

FJCamper wrote:Steering Wheel to Shift Knob Reach

Hey, these guys are doing it right. The shorter the reach from the steering wheel to the shift knob, the quicker you can shift. .

FJC
X2, what he said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywHCtP8sIco

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Piledriver
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by Piledriver » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:56 pm

ChadH wrote:
Fiatdude wrote:There is a guy in San Diego that makes a Hydraulic shifter for type ones -- turns into a motorcycle type shifting pattern -- still have to use clutch
Sounds interesting..It also sounds expensive, hard to adjust and finicky. :wink:
Is there a link for that?
Ratchet shifters rock, and if it can shift a T1 it could probably be adapted to a 901/914, 915,g60 or bus trans.
(901 has reverse in the wrong place, but hey, it could probably be done)
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ChadH
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by ChadH » Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:33 am

Mucking about - trying to plan out the cage. In working on top of a 2-D drawing, some of the bracing from side to side isn't shown.

I think the main portion of the cage is do-able, since I'll be able to tack it in place, then lift the body up to get around and fully weld the joints. It's the ties to the rear horn/shock towers, and also up to the strut towers/swaybar area that I'm not happy with yet. On paper is one thing, but these will need to be assembled with the body back on the chassis, and access to weld will be difficult. I maybe could use flanges in some areas to help, but still need to think this through some more.

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FJCamper
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by FJCamper » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:49 pm

Image

Make an engine cage. It pays off.

And, no insult intended, inferred, or implied, is this a no-rule-book ego car? Almost no sanctioning body allows cage to suspension pickup point connections.

To save yourself money and frustration which leads to an abandoned project, you must decide on what club and series you want to run and build to that.

You are obviously very good at metal work and fabrication, almost a perfectionist. You are capable of building a clean, competitive race car. I'm impressed and envious.

FJC

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ChadH
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by ChadH » Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:51 pm

FJCamper wrote:...
Make an engine cage. It pays off.

And, no insult intended, inferred, or implied, is this a no-rule-book ego car? Almost no sanctioning body allows cage to suspension pickup point connections.

To save yourself money and frustration which leads to an abandoned project, you must decide on what club and series you want to run and build to that....
FJC
This is being prepared to SCCA Solo rules for X Prepared, which is extremely open to modification, provided it remains based on a stock frame and body. The rules do not even have an absolute requirement to run a roll bar or cage, unless it's an open (convertible) vehicle, (although a cage is suggested for any class and car.)

The rules for the class state .."Chassis, frame or subframe may be reinforced provided components and attachments are not relocated.." I'm pretty sure I'm staying within the intent of the rules...That being said, It would probably be wise for me to write SCCA for clarification, since much of the verbiage is a little vague and open to interpretation.

Since it's solo for-time, there's not much need to protect the engine from collision.

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FJCamper
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by FJCamper » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:24 pm

Hi Chad,

OK. X-Prepared. Got it. And it is smart to clarify the legality of roll cage to suspension pickup braces before running into some little king scrutinizer.

Getting to X-Prepared itself, find out who has what running in XP. There might be none or only a few of them locally, or there might be some fastest time of day boys out there.

My son began running our 1970 Ghia in SCCA autocrosses in 2001, in FSP class.

We won enough for the club to push us up to EM so we would lose. We then won enough for them to push us up to DM so we would lose. If you follow SCCA Solo I you know what runs in DM.

We took the local championships in all those classes. VW's win.

XP has an elaborate power to weight classification system modified by displacement, FWD, RWD, weight distribution, and cycles of the moon. It is Formula Libre. Make yours the Super Super Bug

And make a banner for your tent at the track. "This is Where We Race. This is Where You Lose."

FJC

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ChadH
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by ChadH » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:46 am

Here locally there's two XP cars, a 260z, and a Noble M400. Also an EM Tomcat (Fiero). They would all be tough to beat, but that's not really my #1 goal. Mostly I'm perusing this just to build the quickest aircooled VW I can, since I've had these silly old cars under my skin for 30+ years. I may not be the fastest, but I'm confident I'll surprise a few people too.

I don't have any aspirations to go to a national race with the car, or delusions of being competitive with the really hardcore XP crowd.

What I really need is more time to work on this project..argh!

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Jadewombat
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by Jadewombat » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:46 pm

Very good cage design! Just a question without the side view--how are the tubes attached as they curved over the parcel shelf, to the torsion tubes or the floor?

Just looking at it and thinking of a full-pedal-to-the-floor load, the rear-mounts and nosecone always have some flex to them. Even tying the cage to the lower engine bolts/cradle mounts, do you expect some increased load at the nosecone then?
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ChadH
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by ChadH » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:09 am

Jadewombat wrote:Just a question without the side view--how are the tubes attached as they curved over the parcel shelf, to the torsion tubes or the floor?
The intent is to tie this to the torsion tubes. In the drawing, it's curved up over the parcel shelf. I need to think about this area more, since getting the curve just right, and getting in to do full welds without hacking a large hole in the body, I think will be difficult.
Jadewombat wrote: Just looking at it and thinking of a full-pedal-to-the-floor load, the rear-mounts and nosecone always have some flex to them. Even tying the cage to the lower engine bolts/cradle mounts, do you expect some increased load at the nosecone then?
The rear portion is really just a weld-in Kafer bar, that ties up through the parcel shelf to the main cage. I'm thinking solid engine mounts, and supporting the front of the trans with a weld in mount to get the load off the nosecone - with this:
http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.ph ... 96f76a264a

Again, I'm not super happy with the layout in the rear, so I might look at refining this a bit.

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Piledriver
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by Piledriver » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:17 am

A mid mount like that is the way to go.
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4agedub
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Re: '71 Super Beetle Autocross Build

Post by 4agedub » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:21 am

We are still in process of building this one, but just to give you an idea.... we opted to use heim joints in the front to secure the shock towers and they then tie onto the cage.

Door bars. Yes they are probably overkill, but after we had a nasty accident last year with the swing axle bug I'll gladly carry the extra weight.

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