Porsche 944T brakes on VW 1303S

[TZepeSH]

My torque bar is more of a copy of the CSP system.
https://www.csp-shop.de/technik/pdf/deeng/20917.pdf
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IpMX ... G_9646.JPG

Thanks for the info on studs removal, I was considering heat because aluminum expands more than steel and I thought it would make removal easier. Good point with the wheel nut on, not to damage threads. Big hammer it shall be.

[Bruce2]

I presume you copied that description from the Mendeola site.

Mendola's 'stiffy'.jpg
.... transfers some of the load to the torsion housing

Nope. This is a fantasy. The extra bar does nothing.

reducing some of it from the spreader bar that would normally pass everything directly into the shock towers

Here's how the 3 bar setup works.
We all know that when you accelerate forward, the rear ends of the frame horns want to bend down. Newton tells us this happens. When the rear wheel rotates ccw (as viewed from the driver's side), the engine and trans unit wants to rotate cw. This is what pushes the frame horns down.
Install two diagonal links from the rear trans bracket up to the top shock tower, then when the frame horns are pushed down, these two links will try to pull the top of the shock tower down and towards the center of the car. In other words, the two diagonal links are purely in tension.
If you just had those two links, they wouldn't stop the frame horns from bending down. Instead the downward motion of the frame horns will just pull the two shock towers together. Here's where the third cross bar goes. Once it's installed from one shock tower to the other, it will be in compression when you accelerate away.
The result of these three bars is that the tops of the shock towers will see forces pulling straight down. This is not a problem because the vertical section of the shock tower is HUGE, so it won't be bending. There will be a torsional load on the torsion housing's tubes. But since they are very large in diameter and very thick walled, there will be virtually no movement of them too.
These types of links are either in tension or compression when they are working.
Now consider the two extra links in the "stiffy" setup. Which way is the force acting on the links? There's no force pulling the top of the shock tower away from the trailing arm's pivot point. Also, there're no forces pushing the top of the shock tower towards the trailing arm's pivots. Since there are no forces in tension or compression on those links, they aren't doing anything!

Comment on the Bugpack setup in your photo:
This is just a bunch of scrap metal. Don't waste your money on it, it was designed by an incompetent dummy with no engineering comprehension whatsoever.
As the two diagonal links pull down, they just bend the cross link since they are attached not at the end. Since the cross link will be in compression, this will help bend it more. To demonstrate this, take a drinking straw and stand it up on a table. Put your finger on it's end and apply force towards the table. In other words put it in compression. It can take quite a bit, right? Now while applying that load, also push on it's side a tiny amount. How much compression can it take now?

Look at the CSP 3 bar setup. This is designed properly. The downlinks are in tension and the cross link in compression with no side load at all.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Bruce, as usual you are looking at what I say in a very bias manner. Some of what you say is true and some only half true you have to lean to look at things in a wider "cause and affect view" not linear. Remember "the dance of death" that the frame horns can do... depending on what the cause is.

Lee

[Bruce2]

As usual, you assume every post that disagrees with you to be a personal attack.

Bruce, as usual you are looking at what I say in a very bias manner.

Re-read the first line of my previous post. My reply is based on what I assume to be the claims of Mendeola.

and some only half true

Like what?

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Bruce, I am in a lot of pain from the surgery so I don't want to get into a spitting contest here as I probably wouldn't be nice.

It is one thing for a car to sit in the garage and the weight of the engine, being cantilevered to the end of the trans mounts does induce some hanging motion. But consider what happens on the road going over speed bumps, holes, turtles and other things. The mounts can: bounce up and down, side to side, go in a circle or even figure 8.

Racing and off-roading can excerbate these things to the point of failure.

Also remember that the torsion assy is an assy so things that happen to the assy stay in the assy unless there is a direct path for the loading to go in a different direction; e.g., a path of escape. Also look at the shape of the trans mounts/Pickle Forks... they are formed that way (remember what strengths a tube has and doen't have and the straight section used to cure some of it) to fix certain problems ithen there is the stiffening flanges that need to be welded closed as the spot welds don't really do a good job.

The soft stock styled trans mounts also help some things happen that you don't want.

The 2 connections to the pan are known to be not the strongest so you want to help them out too.

The stock trailing arm pivot is not what one thinks it is (pictures for some other time).

This is about as much sitting as I can do but maybe there is a clue in there.

Lee

[Bruce2]

So your argument is that there's a whole bunch of voodoo going on that you don't understand, and that you think I'm wrong but you can't explain why.
Got it.

[TZepeSH]

Some progress here too. I prepared almost everything to install on the car.
I removed the front studs and replaced them with longer ones (72mm I think). I will use rear 21mm spacers so I can fit my Cookie cutters on front. I changed the bearings and disks. I painted the calipers red. I have installed flip-it bushings for tie rod swap. I decided to also weld them, because I thought they fit too easily in the holes (needed to press them, but I expected a higher force on the press).
I decided to detail the underneath of the car: black chassis, red suspension parts, aluminum will be either brushed or polished.

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[TZepeSH]

I rebuilt the 944t axles. Cleaned, painted red, packed with fresh CV joint grease.

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[TZepeSH]

Now I need to make some 2mm spacers for the front strut to spindle mounting bracket. The bug and early (pre 86) 944 have a 20mm flange, but the late and turbo 944 spindles are 18mm thick. Also the bolt spacing is different, 58mm bug and early 944 and 63mm late 944 and turbo. I will slot the struts, weld and re-drill for the "new" bolt spacing.

[TZepeSH]

I decided to postpone a bit installing the 944 t brakes. I need new front struts to match the Porsche spindles (18mm thick flange, 63mm bolt spacing). I will buy Kerscher struts but that is another 680 euros that I have to save.
I will install the aluminum arms and axles. If I remember correctly, the rear calipers bolt spacing is the same for NA and turbo.

[Piledriver]

Axles for manual box are same as vanagon/T3 van.
I ended up using one and a extra-thick cv flange I welded up on right, and a 914 axle with clearanced to fit t4 cvs on the left side
(this on a 003 automatic, with the early alloy arms)

[TZepeSH]

Axles shall not be a big deal. I have conversion flanges for the gearbox (to 930 pattern). Axles are from the 944t the brakes came off. Anyway they have VW marks on all bits, I saw them during the rebuild.
Now a big question is: how did you guys solve the problem of the 944 plate bolts rubbing on the shock tower? I have read there is a 3mm clearance issue. I would rather not add a pacer between the plate and torsion bar housing, I think that will lead to some wrong angles at the spring plate to arm mounting. I'll add some interesting topics I found on the other site referring to the conversion.

[Piledriver]

I cut the shock tower away where needed, but on a t3 it's fabricated from sheet metal, so easier to cut/modify...
If it sees too much stress it will bend (hasn't afaict) the cast t1 setup is prone to crack.

[TZepeSH]

In that case on a t3 you can cut and strengthen back with some webs and welds. I am reticent to grinding on the cast shock tower. I guess I'll just add some spacers between the blades and inner busing for abut 3mm and hope all will be good on the blade to arm interface.
I hope it gets warmer soon so I can start working on this.

[TZepeSH]

I broke my car! I started to take off the old rear suspension. I am struggling now with taking out the spring plates and torsion bars, and they do not want to come out... Probably never taken out in 45 years. I supported the spring plates by a jack and pried them off the stop, then de-tensioned them. But they don't come out. I guess I need larger pry bars.

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And this damned bold was so rusted that I had to cut it in several places to take out one rear arm. The bushing was rusted on the bolt and also the two shims. They did not want to move at all. I had to get creative in that tight space and bend the outer bolt support. Hopefully the threads inside the support are still fine, but I will chase them with an M14x1.5 tap.

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