MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

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kangaboy
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MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:01 pm

I have been reading the forums for days...literally, just on Megasquirt, fuel and ignition. Lots of build threads and lots of different options to think about, and every time I think I know what I want, someone comes along in the thread and gives a reason that the build could be better or it should be done "this" way...which then confuses me. I now have less of an idea of how to do what I want than when I first started.
I'm thinking from the end result backwards in terms of what would be BEST for choice of Megasquirt hardware/software. I'm going to talk in lame mans terms too, so anyone else starting out can use this as a reference or learning thread.
I hate carbs...and distributors. I'm over it.
The end result I'm going to have is my current 1776 will be turbo'd, with a sequential fire spark and fuel. I will eventually work up to this, but would like to buy whatever system I need to run this now, so I don't have to go through the trouble of changing out anything when the time comes. What MS system and software will give me this?

The first thing I would like to do is get the distributor off my car. I want to utilize crank fire. I don't want the ford EDIS system, because many make it sound out dated and maybe difficult to find. I want to use the MS controls for ignition.

After I get electronic ignition under control, I want a mexican FI system and remove my dual 34ICTs.

Then, turbo.

I also have questions about VR (what is that anyway?) Hall sensors, and utilizing crank fire. Does the sensor run to the MS box?
Also, the one thing that has been getting me confused, is the different fuel and spark options. Specifically, how can you run a gang injector system and also run a wasted spark system? Doesn't the wasted spark end up burning the gang fired fuel? I just cant picture this in my head after all the reading :o

EDIT:
Ok, did some more reading of actual MS hardware guide.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V30_H ... de-3.3.pdf
It looks like the MS2V3 will be able to do everything that i EVENTUALLY want. They have a nice write up about the EDIS system, and really make it sound doable. The EDIS system is something that can be ran initially, and then changed with out changing the main components of MS to utilize sequential COP ignition later, correct?
Does anyone utilize a MAF? I know my '76 2.0L Westy has one, but I never see or hear any mention of one in the builds on this forum.
Last edited by kangaboy on Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:51 am, edited 6 times in total.

jhoefer
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by jhoefer » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:52 pm

Wasted spark means it's firing 2 plugs at once. One plug fires in a cylinder on its compression stroke and ignites the fuel, the second plug fires in a different cylinder on its exhaust stroke so there is nothing to burn. IE, the 2nd spark is wasted and does nothing.

Batch injection fires 2 (or more) injectors at once, one is fired on a cylinder with the intake valve open, the second is firing on a different cylinder with the intake valve closed. The fuel in the second cylinder's intake just sits there until the intake valve opens again. The fuel's not in the cylinder so it can't be ignited by the spark.

Going from batch injection/wasted spark to sequential will require you to add some way to determine Cylinder #1 as the engine is running. If you only have a crank wheel initially, you'd have to add a cam sensor (like a converted distributor) to the mix to do that. What you need to do would depend on how you will have things set up to start with.

I would recommend you build the MS with sequential in mind, that is have all the board circuitry and harness wires set up for the additional injector and spark outputs, extra sensors, etc you will need. It'll be a pain in the ass to add that stuff later.

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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by trbugman » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:43 pm

I would also opt for MS3 over MS2. Even if you don't use the 3X you'll still have an upgrade path if you wanted to add boost by gear or another feature that won't be back ported to MS2.
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by woodsbuggy1 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:31 pm

I am very happy with my MS1 v 2.2 with FI EDIS and Turbo. I realize that that there are many possible upgrades available but EDIS works very well and is available in nearly any junkyard in the world for cheap. There are many possible options but it is hard to beat the quality of OEM parts.
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by Piledriver » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:46 pm

woodsbuggy1 wrote:I am very happy with my MS1 v 2.2 with FI EDIS and Turbo. I realize that that there are many possible upgrades available but EDIS works very well and is available in nearly any junkyard in the world for cheap. There are many possible options but it is hard to beat the quality of OEM parts.
Kenric

I'm delighted you are satisfied with MS1, but Ford hasn't made an EDIS system in ~10 years.
Anything used is at least that old, and anything new is Chinese production for the aftermarket.

GM still uses "LS2 coils" in 2015 models AFAICT.
Of course anything new is still probably Chinese, but likely with QC.

On MS1 EDIS still might make sense, but it's a lot easier to troubleshoot direct control.
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by kangaboy » Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:10 am

Can you please explain the "direct control" and LS2 coils? I went over it in the MS manual but it was kinda over my head. I understand the EDIS, run by a crank trigger and MS, or at least the basics of the ignition.
What are the main benefits of MS2 over MS3? Is the MS2V3 able to run the LS2 coils and sequential fuel along with a turbo?
Also, in regards to MAF...are they used on our setups?

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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by fastback » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:21 am

you could also consider Microsquirt
very nice harnesses and connectors with labeled wires.

running 4 LS coils in wastespark or a VAG logic wastspark coilpack
36-1 teeh wheel and hall sensor.

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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by Piledriver » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:24 am

Make sure you only study the msextra manuals...

The megamanual (for B&G firmware) only provides confusion to those trying to understand ms1-extra or ms2-extra.
The -extra firmware uses the hardware much differently in places.
(and uses it ~all)

EDIS was once "the way" to get crank trigger, as it was literally the first way developed, many years ago.

Direct control is just that, direct crank wheel decoding and coil control, rather than just providing control signals to an external subsystem.

EDIS either works or it doesn't, and you get to randomly swap parts until it does.
Troubleshooting direct coil control setups is trivial.

If you needs simple controls, ms1-extra will get you there.
The MS1-extra firmware is "mature" and is unlikely to change in the future: There is no more memory for more features, it is "done".

MS2-extra is closing in on the end of the line as well, although some backporting and such from MS3 is still ongoing.
It is a very capable system these days, but it is also just about out of room for more features. It is still a very nice system.

MS3 development is still very much ongoing and there is still major hardware on it that has yet to be even used.
(xgate coprocessor)


MS3 has an integrated dual channel knock system that appears to work well, onboard datalogging, real time clock and a herd of other features that you may or may not want.
'
In my mind for a boosted motor that I didn't throw together from all random used parts, I would want the system with the best control of boost, AFR, best knock detection, AFR and EGT safety systems etc etc...

I think most folks these days would recommend that if you were upgrading from MS1 or just getting into it, to skip ms2 and go to 3, as the cost isn't that much more, and the hardware and firmware capabilities are so much greater, and very useful.

The MAF subsystem has very recently received a great deal of developer effort and gotten useful on MS2-extra and MS3. The documentation may not have caught up to the hardware/firmware yet, the devs are working on updating all the docs right now.
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by Chip Birks » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:10 am

I vote ms3/3x v3.0. It has all the inputs and outputs you'll ever need, in one box. No building special circuits, just run a wire and turn it on in the software.

Sequential fuel and spark is only possible in stock ecu form with ms3/3x or ms3-pro. Everything else requires major hardware mods and added circuit boards($$$).

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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by kangaboy » Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:23 pm

So it looks like the consensus is get MS3v3 now. I just don't want to get in over my head, but I like the idea of buying the right one with all the options now instead of maxing out the MS1 and having to eventually switch to the MS3 later.

I'm pretty clear on the fueling aspect of the MS system, it seems more straight forward than ignition, with less relays...or am I over looking something?
I'm not worried about having the most advanced spark system either, i just want something that works well, something that is common and understandable...and does sequential or batch. What is the most straight forward system that I can start concentrating on (not EDIS), and put some reading time into? I know what COP and CNP acronyms are, but I'm still confused on LS1, LS2 and what they mean and do. Also, I really dislike the idea of having any type of distributor, so I'm willing to sacrifice the sequential fire with lack of a cam sensor just to get rid of the fat distributor...so maybe batch fire is in my future after all. Looking forward to crank fire regardless though :)

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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by Devastator » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:15 pm

I believe Pile can describe a way to run sequential without a cam sensor, where you just use the crank sensor and wheel to send the "I'm #1 cylinder" signal to the MS. I run wasted spark but do not have any EDIS parts. I bought my hall sensor, (not VR BTW), coils, and 36-1 wheel from DIYAutotune. Plug wires were sourced locally and brackets were made be me. All parts purchased from DIY were new. The Hall sensor can be easily sourced elsewhere and the coils can be replaced with ACCEL, versions, or the like. My choice to NOT use EDIS hardware was the additional module required and the "age" of the components required.
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by Steve Arndt » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:31 pm

Only a few ECUs can do sequential with crank only. My Redline 882C can and I've been running that way for a few years. It measures the acceleration rate of the teeth and determines if the missing tooth is coming onto compression or exhaust.

I also run four IGN coils on four channels, set to waste spark. I should set it back to direct fire and see how it behaves. It worked fine last time I tried it.

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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by kangaboy » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:30 pm

Devastator wrote: I bought my hall sensor, (not VR BTW)
This is one that is confusing me. What is the difference? Both run on a trigger wheel (36-1)? Both are sensors that pick up a signal and tell the MS when its time to fire?
Steve Arndt wrote:Only a few ECUs can do sequential with crank only. My Redline 882C can and I've been running that way for a few years. It measures the acceleration rate of the teeth and determines if the missing tooth is coming onto compression or exhaust.

Can MS3v3 handle this? Or are we talking about something that has to be run in addition to the MS?

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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by Piledriver » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:29 pm

Redline, MS2-extra and MS3 (and likely many other recent designs) support distributor speed wheels, MS supports it as it is a common OEM setup on modern vehicles, and they try to support ~everything, for better or worse.

On some engines (usually american iron), the cam drive chain and distributor driven oil pump can cause large swings in the timing, usually referred to as spark jitter or timing jitter.

Aircooled VWs dont suffer that particular design, so it seems to be a ~non issue.

The reason I actually tried the distributor based wheel to find this out for myself, as there is a lot of BS (and many badly worn out distributors) out there.

After trying it (and how trivial it is to set up the initial timing-- you just turn the distributor and watch the timing marks, almost like old school) I may never bother with a crank wheel again.

You can run waste spark or sequential in MS2-e or MS3, simply set it in the software. (assuming you are wired for sequential)

A lister here started a thread asking why Microsquirt V3 was not the "standard" MS setup, as it is a nice, sealed little system that comes with a harness, with automotive grade connectors etc, and is amazingly inexpensive for the capabilities it has.
The only downside is expansion/modification is difficult (not impossible) due to its nature, but he made a good point.
It does support CAN communications, and several quite powerful subsystems can be added that way.
(EGT/multi-channel WBO2, more digital and analog I/O, digital dashboards (including some OEM types))

It doesn't have all the features MS3 does (It's MS2-extra) but is costs ~1/3 what a MS3-Pro does, for most folks it's far more than sufficient, and the ECU can be installed in the engine compartment if so desired.

MS-extra devs have not implemented the compression sensing #1 detection, the GM patent expired on it a few years ago, it hasn't bee a priority vs supporting ~all the possible OEM wheels, esp when it can be easily done with a missing tooth cam wheel and one sensor.
Last edited by Piledriver on Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MS System for COP and EFI/Turbo

Post by andy198712 » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:33 pm

I run MS1 2.2 running ignition only on my 1200sp using edis.
I'm going to remove the edis module so I can have a rev limiter, and then use it for spark and fuel on my 2110 I'm building... Easier to learn this way!

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