MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

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Clonebug
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Clonebug » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:57 pm

I used the trans switch for the ground side and ran a power wire from the wire feeding my switched coil to the reverse light.
Made the wiring a lot simpler since most of my stuff in back is ground switched from the ECU.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Tue Aug 02, 2016 10:16 pm

Think I finally figured out how to post my MSQ. Anyone mind taking a look? And if there is any reason you think I am running 50* hotter now with this set up, please let me know.
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kangaboy
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:06 pm

Alright, need some help on this one gents. After taking a drive or two, I realize I am running very lean for most of my driving. If I'm not on the gas pretty good, my AFR is up to 16 and greater. Most of the time my computer gauge is red, and on the lean side. This can also be affecting my head temps, and I'm hoping will explain my higher why I am seeing such a higher running temp.
So, with that said. I have my spark table somewhere that I think is ok. Now, on to the fuel...how the heck are you supposed to set up the VE table correctly? Are you supposed to set up the AFR table and then let the AutoTune go to town on your VE table? Because I feel like I have done that in the past, and it hasn't gotten me to where I need to be. Or am I just supposed to drive around, and then bump up all the cells in the VE table where I'm going lean? I need a little guidance here.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:07 am

You need to set the lambda delay table in VEAL for it to work perfectly, the default values are for the authors chevy with iron manifolds.
I'll post mine up again here momentarily (on tuning laptop), it should be a lot closer, although you should tune it for your setup as even WBO2s response times vary by model.

Bump up your entire table or at least the lean areas to get "safe" and then set VEEEAL on "easy" then progressively harder... It should be fully driveable after a few freeway on ramps.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:10 am

Start here on the lambda table:Thats 2200/3900 and 5400 RPM.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:59 am

Piledriver wrote:Start here on the lambda table:Thats 2200/3900 and 5400 RPM.
I found your lambda table on another thread when I was searching through a few weeks ago, and at that time, updated my tune with it. So that part should be fine, compared to the stock TS settings.
When you say "bump up the table", are you referring to the AFR Target table or the VE table?
I'll adjust and give it another whirl tonight...really wanting to drive it in to work tomorrow :lol:

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:02 pm

If you have large areas of the VE table running lean of the AFR target, richen the areas up.
VEAL works very, very well and consistently---
....assuming that lambda table is correct and you have no exhaust leaks.
You should have a pretty decent drivable tune in 5-10 minutes just driving normally.
If it isn't working, we need to figure out what is wrong.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:36 pm

Sigh...after reading and reading today, I found out maybe my "lean" conditions are actually correct.
I ran across a lot of info, but pulled these three bullet points from all I reviewed today:
- 12.75:1 is about as rich as you want to run, at any time, and this is what you should aim for @ WOT
- 16:1 is ok on the highway with part throttle and light cruise, and will actually run cooler than ~13.5:1
- 14:1 is good for idle

Please comment on this if you have thoughts...most of what I was reading today was on carb'd VWs.
Many of my cells were hitting in the 16:1 area. So now I am thinking they are ok, and I don't wanna jack up my tune by dumping in more fuel, and driving my AFRs down. Oh boy...so much to learn.

EDIT: Sorry for all the detailed questions. I have zero experience in this whole AFR thing, so I just wanna get some info before I go and do something stupid. I know the only thing that will actually make things run/work better is seat time and experience. I also know every motor is generally different in the way it runs, and that I just need to get out there and adjust mine accordingly.

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Chip Birks
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:28 pm

12.7:1 is on the ragged edge if you are being aggressive. Make sure you are very conservative with timing or you will damage something.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:06 pm

Just got back from tuning, applying all the knowledge that i picked up today.
Welp...that tune is going in the garbage :lol:
Too much advance and ran like a pig.
Like you said Chip, need to be a little more conservative on the timing. Got a little aggressive and that didn't work out so well. What do you mean about being on the ragged edge around 12.7:1? Don't go any richer?
I thought I should be able to bump certain areas (light load cruising) up to ~42*, just like a distributor with 20* of mechanical and a few degrees of vacuum advance, but that didn't work so well. Gonna put max advance back to 38ish.
Whew! This is a lot more difficult that I first thought. Looking forward to getting all this experience though.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:38 am

On a positive note for my build, I did get my CLT sensor hooked up and reading correctly, and got the reverse lights working.
I was waiting for the CLT sensor before I messed with the WUE and ASE. When first implementing the two curves, I had them way too aggressive. Motor would fire after less than a second of cranking, but would then feel like it was running on two cylinders. Even with a little throttle, it was bad. I have since toned the curves down a lot, and it fires right up within a second of cranking, and idles much better. It still feels like it is missing a little within a minute or two of warming up, so I figured I have a little more to mess with on both of the curves. It sure is nice to have it fire right up with the enrichment curves, instead of cranking for a good 25-35 seconds to get it to fire.

Still haven't driven it to work yet :cry:
Hopefully after another weekend of tuning and tweaking, I can get it where it needs to be.

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Chip Birks
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:42 am

I meant that 12.7 under heavy load in a boosted car is on the scary lean side, and if your timing is too aggressive, the margin for error is very small. Do you have knock detection in place? I personally would tune a little richer under boost, until you have some experience under your belt...unless of course you like replacing cylinders frequently.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:56 am

A slightly tight valve adjustment can make it miss at idle when cold as well.

Your motor will idle better given the AFR "it wants", not necessarily 14:1.
Simulate the best lean idle procedure, using the idle ve table (and use idle ve)
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo-"Adding Turbo and EFI"

Post by kangaboy » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:03 pm

kangaboy wrote:And another problem I just noticed is that my crank pulley is a bit wonky when its turning, which is weird because the only thing that changed was removing the original pulley screw and adding in the crank trigger wheel and the longer pulley screw provided by CBPerformance. Figured I should get this in order before putting too many miles on it.
Finally got around to fixing this issue. I don't know how, but it seemed my crank pulley magically got bent. I "think" the issue was the toothed wheel wasn't applied to the crank and tightened in an even fashion. IDK, all I know is it took me two other pulleys, removing my bolt in sand seal, and my using my dial indicator to realize this. I reinstalled my sand seal, bolted the pulley down tight, and then removed the pulley bolt and reinstalled it with the crank wheel, and it appears to be turning flat.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:55 am

I was finally able to drive the beetle to work today. Drove great with no hiccups. Head temps stayed around 350F on my VDO gauge (minus ~40 according to the boiling water test on my thermocouple, so likely around 310F) and would climb up to ~400F when climbing hills....but then would go back down to cruising temps after the climb.
A rather obnoxious ticking has developed on the passenger side of the engine though. Sounds like a loud valve, or maybe an exhaust leak. I'll investigate this weekend, but hoping its just all the new sounds of injectors and coils that I am not used to yet.

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