MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:19 am

A mechanical advance setup has to not knock at WOT.
That's the only load it can be "right" on, for a simplistic version of "right".

At cruise, it can be 20 degrees or more retarded, which jacks your EGTs/CHT and headshots efficiency.
Run 20 degrees retarded at WOT and see what that does for the engine...
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:33 am

Been getting some tuning sessions in this week on my work commute, advancing my spark table, and learning a lot about the AFR table. I apologize for not posting my Ignition and AFR tables in this post, but will update when I get home. I just wanted to throw this out there to determine if what I'm dealing with is pinging.
Long story short, I have my cruising areas around 16:1, and 100kpa and higher is around 13:1 and richer (again I update with a map when I get home). On the commute home yesterday, three times, when I rolled in to the throttle, after about 1 or 2 seconds, the motor just seemed to die. It felt like it ran out of gas for a second (and I recently dealt with that first hand :lol: ). I let off the throttle and it immediately came right back to life, and I drove on. The last time it happened, I was able to get a log of it, and it was the worst event. I almost head butt my steering wheel, and I swear the motor felt like it almost wanted to spin backwards for a second. When I let off the gas this time it let out a decent sounding backfire, but I just drove it normal and made it home.
I read up on detonation and pinging, and many say it sounds like rock in a can. I don't recall hearing this.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:23 pm

you might want to start richening to ~13:1 and pulling the extra the timing above ~90 kpa...
On boost 11.5-12:1 is more like it.

Aircooled motors are on the noisy side so light-medium knock can be easily missed tuning by ear, but that doesn't sound like the issue you described, that description was more like an ECU `processor reset or losing the timing signal.

An easy way to find small, intermittent glitches is to watch RPMdot in the logs.
fast changes in RPM (for no apparent reason) is what to look for, that is what rpmdot will help reveal.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:33 pm

Sorry didn't have these the first time. If you watch the Log, you will notice where the hiccup is...right in the middle.
2016-10-18_16_modified.zip
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:03 pm

Your spark and AFR table under boost are a recipe for disaster. You are way to lean with way too much timing. Especially if you are running pump gas. That combo is begging for cracked cylinders or melted pistons. Good thing boost is staying low. The stumble you are feeling is happening as the engine is leaning out under load. PW never drops to zero, so there is no fuel cut going on, do you happen to have the AFR safety system enabled? I can't tell if the ECU is cutting spark or not, though it doesn't really look like it. You should also post your .msq file. That could help us see a little more.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by panel » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:13 am

kangaboy..........read these posts re the AFR tables and make a new one based off an accumulation of them.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2 ... l.html#afr

and

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=148487&hilit=afr+table

and

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=132530&hilit=afr+table

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:40 am

Well, I don't think I broke anything, so I'll count this up as a learning experience. I'll post up my MSQ this evening for you all to look at. Actually, I posted it a few pages back and haven't really changed anything but the spark and AFR maps, but I'll post the most recent one.
Piledriver wrote:Need to lean it out and add timing at cruise... ~stoich area runs hottest.
I have several questions after this latest round of tuning, but one in particular is tuning for "Cruise". What is the definition for "Cruise"? I cruise on the highway at 3200rpm ~65mph...and I cruise through the back roads off the highway at 2500rpm ~45mph. I leaned it out to 16.5 AFR, and added a decent amount of timing...but maybe in the wrong spot?
Chip Birks wrote:Your spark and AFR table under boost are a recipe for disaster. You are way to lean with way too much timing.
After looking again at Pile's tables that he posted up and reading his post above, I see what you are talking about here. I will richen up and pull some timing starting in the 90kpa and above areas, and work up from there.

As always, I really appreciate the assistance, Sirs.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Clonebug » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:46 am

If you are running E10 fuel which most people are for 92 octane.... Stoich is supposedly somewhere around 14.1:1 instead of 14.7:1
I run my engine at 14.1:1 in local driving at around 36 degrees timing depending on load and rpm. That is only in light cruise.
Anytime it gets close to 100 kpa I have timing down to 30 degrees and under and running 12.5:1 and richer.
My timing at 250 kpa is at 18 degrees. I also run around 12.0-11.5 at full boost and my WI makes it richer yet.
I was working on leaning out the 200-250 kpa but the rains have come so driving is pretty well over for the year.

On my 3500 mile trip at 6500-8000 ft high altitude I was at 15.1:1 and 41.5 degrees timing at light cruise.

It did NOT like that at 3500 ft. and 104 degrees!!!!!
It started pinging at 100 -120 kpa badly.

Since you are just starting out you should first tune it at the safer settings of no more than 30-34 degrees timing at cruise at 14.1:1 and then once you get everything settled and running good you can do a "Save As" and then play with it some.
You should make sure you have no hiccups when driving before leaning it out.

There is nothing wrong with running at 14.1:1 in cruise.
I get 25-27 mpg at that setting with my buggy.

Each engine is different too....just because Pile runs at 19:1 with his TIV does not mean your turbo engine will run there too. Anytime PIle puts on the gas all he gets is 100 kpa if he floors it.
My engine and yours too is at 100 kpa or higher with only 50% throttle. There is a difference.

100 kpa is Full load for engines N/A.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:06 pm

Be aware that when the WBO2 reports the AFR is 14.7:1, the mix is at stoich//AKA lambda 1.0 --- No matter what the fuel or blend, E85, E10, Propane, hydrogen etc.
That's why we can run an alcohol % sensor and the software can do map blending etc.

Most all WBO2 setups readout is calibrated to gasoline AFR, but the sensor has no sense of "taste" for fuel type, it can only see oxygen %. Internally all automotive-type oxygen sensors only see lambda.

Leave the setting for stoich in TS set for 14.7:1 unless you have a weird gauge. the default is wrong for a bit of safety or something, the devs have talked about making that confusing setting go away.

It actually takes more fuel/air to get there with E10 or whatever, but the WB tells all, at least usually.
Fuel variations get corrected away (small ones anyway) by lamda correction.

Its pretty easy to set up a lamda "gauge" on the pc at least in TS.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:25 pm

Americans don't speak lambda though :D
Clonebug wrote:Since you are just starting out you should first tune it at the safer settings of no more than 30-34 degrees timing at cruise at 14.1:1 and then once you get everything settled and running good you can do a "Save As" and then play with it some.
You should make sure you have no hiccups when driving before leaning it out.

There is nothing wrong with running at 14.1:1 in cruise.
I dont know why you would target stoich ever? You arent trying to please a cat or any other emissions device. The EPA isn't going to pull you over. Everything I have read says that stoich runs hot. I'll know soon enough for sure though, 4 egt, 4 cht, and 4 widebands should tell the story fairly well I hope. I'll give it a test and let you know, near future.
Last edited by Chip Birks on Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:13 pm

Chip Birks wrote:Americans don't speak lambda though :D
I don't know why you would target stoich ever? You arent trying to please a cat or any other emissions device. The EPA isn't going to pull you over. Everything I have read says that stoich runs hot. I'll know soon enough for sure though, 4 egt, 4 cht, and 4 widebands should tell the story fairly well I hope. I'll give it a test and let you know, near future.

I target ~stoich at cruise in cool>cold weather to get it up to temp, needed even with a working thermostat.

BUT: I wasn't in any way advising running stoich as a target.(unless you are overcooling)

I was just explaining the basics of WBO2 and the stoich= setting in TS which should be set to 14.7:1 except under odd circumstances that escape me at the moment.

That setting may only mean anything if you are running a NB sensor.
(I plead I have slept since then, and too lazy to look it up)
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Clonebug » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:30 pm

Piledriver wrote:
Chip Birks wrote:Americans don't speak lambda though :D
I don't know why you would target stoich ever? You arent trying to please a cat or any other emissions device. The EPA isn't going to pull you over. Everything I have read says that stoich runs hot. I'll know soon enough for sure though, 4 egt, 4 cht, and 4 widebands should tell the story fairly well I hope. I'll give it a test and let you know, near future.

I target ~stoich at cruise in cool>cold weather to get it up to temp, needed even with a working thermostat.

BUT: I wasn't in any way advising running stoich as a target.(unless you are overcooling)

I was just explaining the basics of WBO2 and the stoich= setting in TS which should be set to 14.7:1 except under odd circumstances that escape me at the moment.

That setting may only mean anything if you are running a NB sensor.
(I plead I have slept since then, and too lazy to look it up)
I think he was beating up on me Pile.......... :oops:

I thought I read that 13.0:1 was the hottest afr to run.
Stripped66 wrote:The point wasn't to argue air temps with the current world record holder, but to dispel the claim that the K03 is wrapped up at 150 HP. It's not.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Chip Birks » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:27 pm

Sorry, not meaning to beat up, just trying to make sure we don't create a recipe for disaster here. You are one of the guys that fit into Pile's overcooling arena. The fact that you have had to invest time into getting the thing to warm up makes me super jealous! Your lightweight little buggy probably loves running in that hot zone simply because the engine is actualy able to get up to happy temps. Those of us with fully enclosed engine bays have to deal with turbo heat on top of the engine bay warmth and have to put in a lot of effort just to get the cars to run cool enough to be reliable.

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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by kangaboy » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:20 pm

FineTuning 20Oct16.zip
Here is my most recent tune. I fixed up the 90kpa areas and richened up the cruise area just a bit. Gonna use this one on the commute in the morning. I'll report back.
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Re: MS3v3 System for CNP and EFI/Turbo- "Tuning and Tweaking"

Post by Piledriver » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:56 am

Where your setup "cruise" is can vary wildly, depending on cam/gearing/altitude/vehicle and probably a few things not coming to mind at the moment.

I defined mine as >2400 RPM and under 83 KPA from memory, with bins at 83 & 87 KPA on the timing table for a sharp cutoff.(easier to do on MS3 or with dual "stacked" tables for more rows/resolution)

Anything in that area gets leaned out and the timing leaned on...(most of my NA AFR table)
The leaner you run, and the lower the MAP. the more timing it requires, and knock is generally not an issue under those conditions. (YMMV) so you can add timing until it hurts and not break anything (its too lean to hurt anything or knock, it will either miss or make less power if you go too far).

When I could still run@22:1 it took almost 75F off my CHT on 100++ degree days vs running "normal" AFRs and timings,
and got ~35MPG at 75 MPH on long trips.I could do it easier on E70 or better, which dropped it a little bit more.

I'm running the exact same setup now, (including WB etc) but the Iridium fine wire Pulstar plugs are NLA.

The "new" inconel Pulstars didn't work any better that Bosch or NGK triples, NGK iridiums about the same as those as well.
Now, I can pull about 18:1 (at best, iffy), I could still do that with the Iridium pulstars with the electrodes eaten back 3mm into the insulators. I don't understand WTF the changed them, other than to make them cheaper.

They didn't make a lick more power, (There is no magic) but those damned plugs let me lean it out like crazy and not miss.
Everyone showing them for sale still just substitutes the "new" # conventional inconel electrode replacement.
(just ordered 2 pairs of BE1iT for sanity check, old stock still available in twin packs)

On the hottest Dallas summer days I still have tons of cooling headroom as long as I am moving.

When the air coming off the pavement is ~140F sitting in traffic gets toasty at idle, E85 helps that some.

Being a T3, the fan sucking on cooler air ducted from the tops of the fenders helps too.
The odds of sucking back any used cooling air is close to zero, even sitting at idle.
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