Share yor AFR table.
- gtmdriver
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 1:38 am
Share yor AFR table.
I'm just getting to grips with tuning the fuel tables now and although VE Analyse Live is a very nice function it does depend on having a relevant AFR table.
There is a table generator in the 'Tools' section of TunerStudio but the aircooled Beetle engine is not a typical engine so does anyone have a working AFR table for a 1600 TP aircooled Beetle engine that they could post for me as a starting point?
John
There is a table generator in the 'Tools' section of TunerStudio but the aircooled Beetle engine is not a typical engine so does anyone have a working AFR table for a 1600 TP aircooled Beetle engine that they could post for me as a starting point?
John
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Re: Share yor AFR table.
Here is an AFR table that will help you generate L-jetronic like fueling. You can use this to tune your VE, and then go crazy with AFR and EGO control.
1981 Volkswagen Vanagon Westfalia - air-cooled Type4 1970cc CV (hydraulic lifters, 42x36 valves, stock cam, microSquirt FI)
1993 Ford F-250 XL LWB Extended Cab 7.3L IDI
1993 Ford F-250 XL LWB Extended Cab 7.3L IDI
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Re: Share yor AFR table.
Luft,
what is your final power/eco A/F map for your rig?
what is your final power/eco A/F map for your rig?
- Piledriver
- Moderator
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- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Share yor AFR table.
Hi, John, very good to see you again.
The simple target table posted by Luftwagon is safe and perfect for tuning the VE table.
On MS1/2-extra or MS3, at least, the "proper" method is to first teach/have VEAL learn a proper VE table.
...Once you have a solid VE table, if you want more or less fuel somewhwre, you change the AFR TARGET and the correct fueling will be automagically calculated--- It's quite accurate if the lambda delays were right and the VE table is solid.
Unless you change something in the engine, the VE table should remain ~as a constant once its taught so the variations are in the noise.
Here's the last AFR target table i was using on MS2, it usually was 22:1 in the leanest areas, but the plugs were starting to go away on me at this point so it could only pull 19:1.
How lean YOUR engine can run depends on chamber design/plugs/location/squish/compression and fuel, I can run even leaner on E85.
There have been some requests to the MS devs for a separate E85 target table to allow ethanol% target blending, nothing so far, but the ethanol% VE table blending works well.
I could not run this lean in winter as it would overcool the heads, for cold weather I target ~stoich at cruise and use less timing. Running at very lean mixes requires a LOT of timing, but the chance of det at those loads and AFRs is ~zero.
This is still a simple target table, if you had a highly tuned motor you would probably want to give it a bit more fuel here around peak TQ in the high load area.
The simple target table posted by Luftwagon is safe and perfect for tuning the VE table.
On MS1/2-extra or MS3, at least, the "proper" method is to first teach/have VEAL learn a proper VE table.
...Once you have a solid VE table, if you want more or less fuel somewhwre, you change the AFR TARGET and the correct fueling will be automagically calculated--- It's quite accurate if the lambda delays were right and the VE table is solid.
Unless you change something in the engine, the VE table should remain ~as a constant once its taught so the variations are in the noise.
Here's the last AFR target table i was using on MS2, it usually was 22:1 in the leanest areas, but the plugs were starting to go away on me at this point so it could only pull 19:1.
How lean YOUR engine can run depends on chamber design/plugs/location/squish/compression and fuel, I can run even leaner on E85.
There have been some requests to the MS devs for a separate E85 target table to allow ethanol% target blending, nothing so far, but the ethanol% VE table blending works well.
I could not run this lean in winter as it would overcool the heads, for cold weather I target ~stoich at cruise and use less timing. Running at very lean mixes requires a LOT of timing, but the chance of det at those loads and AFRs is ~zero.
This is still a simple target table, if you had a highly tuned motor you would probably want to give it a bit more fuel here around peak TQ in the high load area.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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- Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 12:01 am
Re: Share yor AFR table.
I understand most of the theory and basics.
I'm asking because I am converting my 90 Multivan to MSII. It has the stock 2.1L WBX, the stock FI has given me nothing but fits for 5 years. I completely the removal of the stock FI, and installation begins this week. So it will never run again unless I succeed.
I already replaced the crank pulley and trigger, that was fun.
I'm just looking for a base map that has been SUCCESSFULLY used, to prevent reinventing the wheel. But I know I'm blazing trail here, if I'm the first so be it. I'm not looking for anything fancy, just something reliable that will give me 90-100hp. I do see a lot of major elevation changes in this thing though.
I'm using wasted spark, and Chip Birks has been kind enough to give me some advice as I figure out this new language.
I'm asking because I am converting my 90 Multivan to MSII. It has the stock 2.1L WBX, the stock FI has given me nothing but fits for 5 years. I completely the removal of the stock FI, and installation begins this week. So it will never run again unless I succeed.
I already replaced the crank pulley and trigger, that was fun.
I'm just looking for a base map that has been SUCCESSFULLY used, to prevent reinventing the wheel. But I know I'm blazing trail here, if I'm the first so be it. I'm not looking for anything fancy, just something reliable that will give me 90-100hp. I do see a lot of major elevation changes in this thing though.
I'm using wasted spark, and Chip Birks has been kind enough to give me some advice as I figure out this new language.
- Piledriver
- Moderator
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Re: Share yor AFR table.
I'm pretty sure some our European listers (here or on msextra) run MS2E on a Vanagon, might want to start a dedicated thread.
I can provide a tune, about the same power, similar plenum/runner volume off a 1.8L T4 w/2L Porsche heads.
You'll have to change reqfuel due to injector sizing and ignition setup, but its likely a reasonable starting point.
You should strongly consider 2nd baro mod if you drive in the mountains.
System as std only gets an ATM baro reference at key on, and if you get a reset at speed your ATM reference is whatever MAP you were running after the reset.
The factory manifolding is great, and the stock TB can trivially be modded for a TPS.
On MS3 you can actually set it up to have both MAP and MAF and/or Alpha-N so you have limp modes in case of a failed sensor.
MS2E/MS3 MAF code is supposedly quite solid now.
Either way, you can gut or bypass the AFM and use the factory air cleaner box.
A MAF sensor can go there. You can use voltage or frequency MAFs now.
Have looked at doing this myself on my 86 Vanagon, although the Digijet never gave me any grief.
Digijet uses the same grade of wiring harness as LJet, the connectors are OK but the wire/insulation/crimp quality sucks.
The commercially available MS harnesses use a much better grade of wire.
Most of the time the issue is lame grounds, I replaced and protected all the ground connectors on mine when I got the van, eliminated the push-ons with the automotive/marine hot melt glue sealed crimp loops. I won't use anything else now.
I can provide a tune, about the same power, similar plenum/runner volume off a 1.8L T4 w/2L Porsche heads.
You'll have to change reqfuel due to injector sizing and ignition setup, but its likely a reasonable starting point.
You should strongly consider 2nd baro mod if you drive in the mountains.
System as std only gets an ATM baro reference at key on, and if you get a reset at speed your ATM reference is whatever MAP you were running after the reset.
The factory manifolding is great, and the stock TB can trivially be modded for a TPS.
On MS3 you can actually set it up to have both MAP and MAF and/or Alpha-N so you have limp modes in case of a failed sensor.
MS2E/MS3 MAF code is supposedly quite solid now.
Either way, you can gut or bypass the AFM and use the factory air cleaner box.
A MAF sensor can go there. You can use voltage or frequency MAFs now.
Have looked at doing this myself on my 86 Vanagon, although the Digijet never gave me any grief.
Digijet uses the same grade of wiring harness as LJet, the connectors are OK but the wire/insulation/crimp quality sucks.
The commercially available MS harnesses use a much better grade of wire.
Most of the time the issue is lame grounds, I replaced and protected all the ground connectors on mine when I got the van, eliminated the push-ons with the automotive/marine hot melt glue sealed crimp loops. I won't use anything else now.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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- Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 12:01 am
Re: Share yor AFR table.
I re-clocked the AFM spring to hold the flapper open instead of closed, the stock filter, box, and cold air intake can't be beat.
- Piledriver
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Re: Share yor AFR table.
Here's a recent tune from Subwoofer on the msextra forums, has a late synchro.(European, probably high compression though)
Its for ms3, but the tables all export/import and the warmup stuff has been working well, but only to 0F and 3500 feet.
The WUE etc are the hardest to nail settings, the injector settings (deadtime, reqfuel) are also right for stock injectors.
Create a new project to look at it/export tables and copy settings, don't try to import directly, something will barf.
I think he uses a distributor but with a crank wheel or something oddball for ignition.
Its for ms3, but the tables all export/import and the warmup stuff has been working well, but only to 0F and 3500 feet.
The WUE etc are the hardest to nail settings, the injector settings (deadtime, reqfuel) are also right for stock injectors.
Create a new project to look at it/export tables and copy settings, don't try to import directly, something will barf.
I think he uses a distributor but with a crank wheel or something oddball for ignition.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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- Posts: 85
- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:14 pm
Re: Share yor AFR table.
Correct, it's a DJ (10.5:1 comp) running 93RON. Stock intake from throttle and in, VWSpeedshop SS exhaust, no cat.
Trigger is a 36-1 ring welded to the pulleys, stock distributor converted to single tooth, stock coil driven by the main board coil driver. Tables are a bit of a mishmash in terms of mode, ignition is SD while AFR table is MAFload. Using a loop variable to switch tables at 90% TPS, lean burn below, full power above that threshold.
Fueling controlled by a Bosch HFM5 MAF.
Trigger is a 36-1 ring welded to the pulleys, stock distributor converted to single tooth, stock coil driven by the main board coil driver. Tables are a bit of a mishmash in terms of mode, ignition is SD while AFR table is MAFload. Using a loop variable to switch tables at 90% TPS, lean burn below, full power above that threshold.
Fueling controlled by a Bosch HFM5 MAF.
Joachim
- Fia, '14 Fiesta Titanium
- Frk Jensen, '74 Jensen-Healey
- Kengu, '90 Caravelle C Syncro
Diesel is good for cleaning parts...
- Fia, '14 Fiesta Titanium
- Frk Jensen, '74 Jensen-Healey
- Kengu, '90 Caravelle C Syncro
Diesel is good for cleaning parts...
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- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:31 am
Re: Share yor AFR table.
I'm just starting setting up the engine in my van and am still learning about how this all works. If the VE table remains the same when you tweak the AFR, does that mean you get the same VE table result in auto tune regardless of the target AFR?Piledriver wrote:.......Unless you change something in the engine, the VE table should remain ~as a constant once its taught so the variations are in the noise.........
- Piledriver
- Moderator
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- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Share yor AFR table.
Once the VE table is taught by VEAL, that's the idea if "include AFR table" in calculations is set (default)Owen Snell wrote:I'm just starting setting up the engine in my van and am still learning about how this all works. If the VE table remains the same when you tweak the AFR, does that mean you get the same VE table result in auto tune regardless of the target AFR?Piledriver wrote:.......Unless you change something in the engine, the VE table should remain ~as a constant once its taught so the variations are in the noise.........
You can then change the AFR target table without altering the VE table, which should not change if it was right.
This works very well.
The fuel amount is calculated on the fly based on the table values and sensor inputs.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:31 am
Re: Share yor AFR table.
So the numbers in the VE table are derived from the fuel used - AFR - engine speed?Piledriver wrote: Once the VE table is taught by VEAL, that's the idea if "include AFR table" in calculations is set (default)
You can then change the AFR target table without altering the VE table, which should not change if it was right.
This works very well.
The fuel amount is calculated on the fly based on the table values and sensor inputs.
- Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22518
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Re: Share yor AFR table.
Owen Snell wrote:So the numbers in the VE table are derived from the fuel used - AFR - engine speed?Piledriver wrote: Once the VE table is taught by VEAL, that's the idea if "include AFR table" in calculations is set (default)
You can then change the AFR target table without altering the VE table, which should not change if it was right.
This works very well.
The fuel amount is calculated on the fly based on the table values and sensor inputs.
The airflow and thus VE are derived from the data, yes.
MSextra uses model-based calculations.
It does let you turn the "include AFR" option off if you are a tuner who is used to directly tweaking the VE table to change fueling.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
-
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:31 am
Re: Share yor AFR table.
Mine is currently set at 'don't include AFR target'. The VE table has been populated using VEAL and some manual filling in with 13.5 AFR across the board.Piledriver wrote:Owen Snell wrote:Piledriver wrote:.......It does let you turn the "include AFR" option off if you are a tuner who is used to directly tweaking the VE table to change fueling.
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- Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:14 pm
Share yor AFR table.
Why did you turn "include AFR" off? It is not a setting you can turn on and off at will, changing requires a retune unless your entire AFR table happens to be stoich.
Joachim
- Fia, '14 Fiesta Titanium
- Frk Jensen, '74 Jensen-Healey
- Kengu, '90 Caravelle C Syncro
Diesel is good for cleaning parts...
- Fia, '14 Fiesta Titanium
- Frk Jensen, '74 Jensen-Healey
- Kengu, '90 Caravelle C Syncro
Diesel is good for cleaning parts...