New Start Up 2387

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DeathBySnuSnu
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New Start Up 2387

Post by DeathBySnuSnu » Wed May 03, 2017 8:30 pm

I am near my first start up on the scooter.
A 2387, fk10, and 44mm itbs.
Megasquirt ms1 xtra and 2.2 board.
Dual o2, dual table and edis.

So am I correct in assuming that I wont have the vacuum to use the map?
I have been planning on going full alpha n as ms1 don't have itb mode.

What do yall think?
Will I have enough vacuum to map?
What does an alpha n table supposed to look like?
Anyone have a big engine alpha n example?
How about an online calculator?

Or....does anyone have a used ms2 daughter card laying around?
I am not going to buy a new one, If I wanted to spend money on an upgrade it would be for a micro.

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ps2375
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by ps2375 » Wed May 03, 2017 10:11 pm

I don't remember how we did our ITB startup on MS1 a long time ago. I think we estimated power and let MS make a table, then I adjusted mixture at idle and got it to rev. All on alpha-n. Sadly it stuck a valve while on the dyno. It was a 16V 1.8L waterpumper. The intakes were as loud as the exhaust, as it had 288* cams in it. I didn't even try to put a MAP on it. GL with yours, it should scare you easily... :wink:

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Piledriver
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by Piledriver » Thu May 04, 2017 3:56 am

Don't discount going MS3...
An MS3 and MS3X actually can fit in the std single height case with new end caps (which I know you are perfectly capable of making in your sleep)
The feature set borders on ludicrous power/flexibility, and the built in high speed sdcard datalogging should really help tuning a bike.
Don't let the V2.2 mainboard stop you, it works just fine. (Even a V1.01 first group buy board)
The ease of setup is also totally unlike MS1.

...of course my next project is likely to be a Speeduino... 4 cylinder full sequential, $160 preassembled and tested or ~$120 DIY. Uses Tunerstudio, VEAL even works with registered version of TS. Bit smaller and all screw terminals for connections.
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by DeathBySnuSnu » Thu May 04, 2017 6:49 am

I dont need a lot of the features on 2 or 3. I dont have any extra inputs or outputs.
The old ms1 board and the ic chips were free and I have 20 something dollars of parts from digikey.
I am going to use dual tables but the ignition is off board (edis) so I should have the processor time.

So no table starting suggestions for alpha n?
I find online calculators for a map table, but dont find anything (not even an example table) to givr any guide line on table for alpha n.

I have read a few folks post about a map being slow reaction with big cams.

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Piledriver
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by Piledriver » Thu May 04, 2017 12:49 pm

Unfortunately I don't think anyone here runs MS1 and ITBs.
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DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by DeathBySnuSnu » Thu May 04, 2017 2:48 pm

Wow..........am I that oddball?

It certainly seems like something well within ms1 capability, just not as easy as newer models.

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Piledriver
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by Piledriver » Thu May 04, 2017 6:19 pm

There's a lot to be said for ease of use...

An MS3 is overkill, but that seems to suit the rest of the build just fine :twisted:

Most folks consider full sequential fuel and spark, and injection timing control useful on a motor that tightly tweaked.
Ms2 is only missing the per-cylinder ignition timing tweak table, it has fuel % and timing control.

With huge overlap, you may want to spray after overlap only on the intake stroke, using oversized injectors.
Prevents it being sucked straight out the exhaust.
Unavoidable with batch injection.
This does not mean it won't still work, carbs work fine and are oblivious to the issue, just feed it more fuel.

A microsquirt can be set up with 2 additional injector drivers (module exists for uSmodule use, but is suitable) involves some SMD rework to fit but is doable. Waste spark is fine for most purposes, with the right coil. Saves pins on the connector for injection.
(microsquirt is MS2)
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by DeathBySnuSnu » Thu May 04, 2017 7:42 pm

Well yeah.....I can see that on a 1700hp turboed small block.

Review my logic as I may have it wrong or leaving something out.

So 200ish hp, stockish small block chevy range, dont seem like a big deal. I dont have boost and detonation worries.
So with only 2 normally aspirated cylinders in correct pairing and on a table with 2 squirts per cycle. Even though it may not be "on time" that would be dang near sequential.

I can see where being able to controll fuel and spark on a per cylinder basis could be helpfull at the extreme end like super high compression or boost.

Carbs dont typically suck out the exhaust on normally aspirated engines. Most of the overlap blows backwards up the intake. Reversion. That is what those anti reversion chambers are all about on the headers.

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ps2375
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by ps2375 » Thu May 04, 2017 9:41 pm

I can look and see if I have the msq from that build, I should. But, I am 4.5hrs away from that computer for the next week.

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Piledriver
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by Piledriver » Fri May 05, 2017 2:29 am

At some rpm/load points you'll have reversion.
At others, you won't, and you'll be sucking raw fuel out the pipes.
Its inevitable with fuel sitting in the intake ports and pushing 90 degrees of overlap.

With enough muffler restriction, you don't have anything to worry about.
With open headers, it should be fun to watch at times/
At least with injection you can just feed the fuel it wants w/o the double fuel feed/bog that reversion can cause at lower RPMs with carbs.

A 200 HP T1 is pretty tweaked, although the lowish CR for the cam and proper squish should keep things sane.

I do encourage you to consider the second pair of injector drivers if you eventually upgrade to the microsquirt.
It would require a cam phase signal of some sort to run sequential.(many options)

There is also a simple "in between" setup that adapts a MS2 to a MS3X, all the mainboard mods are in the adapter so its almost plug and play fully sequential if you like, for ~$15 and a $90 MS3X. (requires MS2 daughtercard)
Unloading the v2.2 board is the best thing to do with it, almost all I/O other than basic sensors is on the MS3X.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by DeathBySnuSnu » Sat May 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Ok thanks for going over that with me.
If/when I upgrade I have a direction to go.

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Piledriver
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by Piledriver » Sun May 07, 2017 1:56 am

You are welcome.

You may find this at least interesting.
It doesn't really get going for awhile unless you like extended discussion of endless debugging of possible setups.
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... ilit=MS2xt

Note it WILL fit in a std MS2 case (with custom end caps), so it follows a full on MS3+MS3X can as well...

This works just fine BTW, even if only V3x mainboards are "officially supported", I have probably 50K miles on mine, my MS2+MS3X may become a automatic trans controller, as it has mid and high current drivers for everything with spares.

It plugs in the same harnesses as my MS3 at the moment, fully interchangeable.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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andy198712
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by andy198712 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:11 am

I do ms1 2.2 and ITBs

Map works and is better then TPS at things like hills ect, but the tuning window for kpa is slim,
TPS felt faster and pulled harder on the pick up but went I bit lean on hills as you would be going along at part throttle, I hill would come up, the mix or powerful engine and light car meant you don't need to add more throttle for the hill, but as load was added on the engine it would go lean, that's where map is better...

So yes it can work, just takes some time tuning, I'm going to go back to map in the coming months and work something out to give greater vacuum, I toyed with one way valves on 3 of the 4 vac lines and that helped....

DeathBySnuSnu
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by DeathBySnuSnu » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:00 pm

Thanks for the reply.
How much cam do you run?

I have an fk10 in mine, which is big but not huge.
I am doubting I will have the vacuum.
I guess time will tell...

Can I get your .msq to compare with?

I did a guess work one for mine.

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andy198712
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Re: New Start Up 2387

Post by andy198712 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:08 pm

Webcam 86b so in the same range.

I'll get some pictures tonight of my tunes if I can find them, car has been sat in the garage for a few months now while I'm away with work.

Are we talking fuel or spark? What size injectors are you running?

The table generator will get you running enough to start it for fuel but be very rich,

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