My bus will run with injection

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buildabiggerboxer
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by buildabiggerboxer » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:29 am

Chip nailed it, there is to much obsession with sequential fuel, even ignition come to that, just look at how clean the ancient mechanical systems ran, some of the cleanest exhaust emission tests we get in the bog stock street car annual tests were k jet systems, still are even now when we see a decent Gti or such, and these are constant flow systems with fuel stored in the port untill the valve opens, even sequenced ignition is not needed unless your going racing at 10,000 rpm, waste spark is fine for most all needs, my own obsession tho is COPs as i dont like HT leads and all the possible connector failure points with them and possible HT leak points, sequential ignition is then a mouse click away assuming engine cam phase sensor..just my thoughts in anycase, and having fun with it is the main target after all, good luck with it.

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:48 am

Chip Birks wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:56 pm
One thing to remember about sequential and OEMs, most tunes are developed in a lab, on dynos, with a million sensors and millions of $$$, then once its proven in every concievable circumstance, its mass produced and no longer needs the sensor army the test subject had.
Yes, as just said, you nailed it!
I have to say too that COP is a novelty to me, but I really like this idea too. What I'm discovering as I'm learning more about the MS and its community, is how infinite it can be. Let's be honest, our buses and beetles are hobbies, so somehow it's nice to know that you are installing something that will work and make it better. And that you'll be able to upgrade it and make it even better later if you want, your project can be never ending. Pretty cool.

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Piledriver » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:06 pm

Re: #3 retard---
Only true with some vacuum advance only distributors.
The later mech/vac or 009/050s etc units did not have it.
(I used to think the same until corrected by either Marc or Bruce2)

Its actually trivial to do on a ms2e/ms3 sequential spark setup, but its probably not needed unless you are running a non-doghouse early oil cooler setup that restricts the airflow to #3.

Full sequential further allows fuel trim to each cylinder...
Getting the AFR right is more critical, esp in a boosted app.

Full sequential can be done with one sensor in the distributor, with a missing tooth wheel in dist.
That setup is trivial to get running.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by 64 sunroof » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:56 am

Hi,

something i stumbled across before when i was still using my MS2 (i have since upgraded to MS3x) was this http://www.extraefi.co.uk/products/MS2X.html which is a daughter board to add some extra features including a couple of extra injector dirvers and a second VR sensor.

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Piledriver » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:51 am

That's a variation of the "Open/Free" design I posted.
That was his idea.

The size/functionality of the Free version are limited due to the board size limitations of the free version of Eagle PCB.
The board manufacturers also have a price break there.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:25 am

That's a pretty interesting variation.
Now you got me wondering: should I add those extras from the get go - still doing ignition first, but sequential instead of wasted spark? That would mean wiring once instead of having to re-wire later on? Or am I overthinking it (highly possible, that's my second nature)...

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:21 pm

After all the theory questions, here is a "real life" one.
I have an AEM Uego AFR gauge - it has the Bosch 4.9 LSU wideband sensor. How do I make it coexist with the MS2 box? Do I just plug it directly to the MS2? Or do I plug the MS2 to the gauge itself as it has a +5v output?

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Piledriver » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:51 am

The analog output of the wideband controller goes to the ECU.
MS supports virtually any wideband o2 setup in this way.

Wideband sensors all require a dedicated controller, narrowbands don't but are almost useless.
There are a few ECUs wit built-in wideband controllers but IMHO you are better off with something you can replace.


MS2E/3 ecus can ALSO talk with various innovate and 14point7.com wideband controllers over serial, I2C, or CAN for a pure digital data transfer, avoiding offset issues inherent with analog signals. This supports multiple widebands.
I, for one, regularly embrace our new robot overlords, as I am the guy fixing the robots...

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:38 pm

Thanks for that, it should be easy to wire!

The more I read about EFI, MS and all there is to know, the more I think this forum lacks one thing: a sticky topic that would list the basic components required, as well as the MS mods/settings to make your "starter pack" EFI. The more I discover, the clearer it becomes, but it also deepens as there are so many options and variations.

A beginner's list (get this coil, that sensor, this size injectors for an engine with XXX horse power, plug it this way and so on) would remove a lot of the black magic, and probably would attract more people to EFI rather than scaring them away.

I'm still glad I came across this forum and you guys have been pretty helpful and patient, but gosh the learning curve is steep!

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:24 am

I got my trigger wheel, so I have pretty much everything I need to have the ignition installed on the engine side.

Now I need to figure out the coil and the mods required to my MS2 3.57. I'm reading the manual and I'm slightly confused:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS2 ... e-3.4.html

I find it slightly confusing because the instructions are generic, and written in the US. The LS1/LS2 coils don't exist in Europe and I'm not sure what type of coil is the Golf mk4 one. That coil seem pretty common here, it might be a simple option. Or get some COP and wire them wasted spark for now.

Also, on page 76, it states that I need extra hardware to go for the FET Driver Method. And I'm told that I don't have the "prototype" area on my board since it was machine assembled. But I have an extra DB15 I can use - though is it even wired to the board?

Sorry this post probably seems confused, it's because I am. :mrgreen:
It's a lot of new concepts to ingest, and whilst I have some grasp of electronics, having graduated two decades ago from a video college, I never applied it to cars...

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Piledriver » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:34 am

google for "vw 106 coil", current revision is "E" part# 032 905 106 E

I'd be surprised if GM didn't use LS2 coils in much of what they sell in Europe, but I have no info on that.

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It's also perhaps the greatest weakness, as ~unlimited configuration options confuse people.
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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:01 am

That one will be easy to find thanks. It's on so many VW models I should be able to find one with its wires to make my own harness.
The difficult part is what do I need for the MS2 more than the coil(s).

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:21 pm

Mario pointed me in the right direction...

This version of the manual is way more complete, it covers the mods and the VW coil that everyone has! :oops:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V357_Hardware-3.4.pdf

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by pierrox » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:10 am

Ok so I need a TC4427AEPA chip, found it on an electronics website. Won't break the bank.
And two resistors. Easy.

Any of you done this mod? Where did you put the chip? I read that it's not a bad idea to have it outside the MS2 box as it could create interference. I'm planning on having a relay board, should I just put it on it?

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Re: My bus will run with injection

Post by Jadewombat » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:58 pm


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